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Tuesday, August 14, 2007
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21 comments:
Sad and true.
I love this guy so much
Yes, it's very true.
There are/were absolutely no militant, intransigent, violent, irrational forces at work in Egypt, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.
Not now, not ever.
All are virutal paradises filled with calmness, rationality, sound liberal/democratic leadership and forward thinking policies.
Sad and true, indeed.
This cartoon is the very definition of Arab propaganda.
"All are virutal paradises filled with calmness, rationality, sound liberal/democratic leadership and forward thinking policies."
Um...how does that relate to the fact that a racist entity called Israel has one of the worlds larges and most powerful weapons, including nuclear weapons, uses many of its world's most powerful weapons against civilian populations and denies the indiginous people living there under its control basic human and civil rights simply because they're not jewish?
Take your poor attempt at a sarcastic argument and shove it in your ear (as my pops would say).
Equal rights for all in Palestine/Israel.
That's rich.
Latuff, a Brazilian, has created "the very definition of Arab propaganda."
Um...how does that relate to... blah blah blah.
Um, it relates to the fact that the cartoon is utterly ridiculous, except in as much as it's (unfortunately) incredibly instructive as to why much of the Arab/Muslim world is in the sad state that it's in. Apparently will be for a while, too, if you guys think this is "true."
Let the stagnation continue! (That's what's really both sad and true).
C'est la vie.
Having said that, your pops sounds cool.
Cheers.
And Will, I know it's your specialty, but do try a bit harder not to be a hypocrite.
You know very well that some of the biggest supporters of Israel (read: Christian Zionists) are not Jewish and that they're plenty capable of propagandizing for Israel. Same goes for the many non-Palestinian so-called "friends" of Palestine.
My pops is mad cool, thanks for the compliment.
You seem like a cool person yourself. Can we agree that there should be one country where all, Jews, Christains, Muslims...etc. are given equal citizenship rights?
Anon 6:32 PM,
Hypocrisy is not my only speciality. Logic is one of my strong suits. I'll give you a demonstration:
Your write that:
"You know very well that some of the biggest supporters of Israel (read: Christian Zionists) are not Jewish and that they're plenty capable of propagandizing for Israel. Same goes for the many non-Palestinian so-called "friends" of Palestine."
Are you saying that Christian Zionist material in support of Israel could be called "Jewish propaganda" or "Israeli propaganda"? No, you -- or someone capable of coherance -- would say they produce "pro-Israel propaganda." That is clearly ridiculous reasoning and bad language use on your part. Your analogy is a faulty one.
Plus, you cannot argue by analogy to try to show I am a hypocrite. You need to point out where I contradict my avowed beliefs -- not some argument that someone who agrees with me might make.
Class is over. Remember to turn in your homework tomorrow.
Will
pali-american, you write:
Can we agree that there should be one country where all, Jews, Christains, Muslims...etc. are given equal citizenship rights?
Sure, and there are lots of those countries in the world (U.S./Canada/Western Europe, etc...)- just none of them are in the Middle East (including and especially the 22 Arab countries).
Will,
Are you saying that Christian Zionist material in support of Israel could be called "Jewish propaganda" or "Israeli propaganda"?
I guess that depends on the variety of "Zionist" hater, the mileage of you and your friends seem to vary.
You need to point out where I contradict my avowed beliefs.
Right. Stating that it's "rich" that someone not of a particular ethnicity/nationality (or religion, whatever) is not technically capable of epitomizing the propaganda associated with that group - you know to be untrue, because you are many things, but you're not an idiot.
If you want to pretend to be one, to win this "argument" - fine by me.
Obviously, there's nothing particularly "rich" about someone stating that Carlos L. is a master of Arab (or Palestinian, or Muslim, etc..) propaganda. It's what the kid does. And by the way, it was a different anonymous who made the comment about "Arab propaganda" - not me. But it's hardly a scandalous, let alone incorrect, thing to say about the guy who likes to draw Sharon frenching Hitler. (And no, that's not a defense of Sharon).
Can we agree that there should be one country in PALESTINE/ISRAEL where all, Jews, Christains, Muslims...etc. are given equal citizenship rights?
I'm assuming you don't agree with me...so, what do you propose should be done to the non-Jews living in the land controlled by Israel?
What should be done to them?
Nothing.
The ones who are Israeli citizens should stay in Israel if they want. If they'd rather live in the Palestinian state when it's created, they should go there. And the West Bank and Gaza should be turned into a Palestinian state - just as called for in any number of peace plans, be they the Quartet's, the Saudi's, Camp David/Taba, etc...
As Lebanon and Iraq have proven, even various sects of Arabs have extreme difficulty living in the same country unless one faction has total dominance over the others - and that has horrible consequences as well.
All this sweet and disingenous talk about "one country" is a recipe for a civil war and everyone with half a brain knows that.
That's another thing (rather than this ridiculous cartoon) that's "sad and true".
20% of Israel is Palestinian. Is Israel a Jewish state?
You call for a Palestinian state in the west bank and Gaza? Who controls water rights, air space, imports/exports? Are you refugees allowed to return to THEIR homes in Israel and become citizens of Israel?
pali-american,
Morocco is 30% Berber. Is Morocco an Arab state?
It's in the Arab League.
Any number of Arab states refer to themselves as Arab states despite often having substantial minorities that are not Arab.
Are they still Arab states?
Even so, that is not the issue. The issue is that they are defining themselves by an ethnicity to begin with. You claim to think that's a problem, but your outrage (as with all the posters on this site) is extremely selective, to say the least.
That's why all the calls for one state are disingenuous in the extreme and most people see right through it - why it's had no traction whatsoever and otherwise intelligent people like Ali Abuminah are completely ignored. Because people know he's, for lack of a better term, full of sh*t.
You call for a Palestinian state in the west bank and Gaza?
Yes. Just like the Quartet, the E.U., the Saudi/Arab League plan, etc...
Who controls water rights, air space, imports/exports?
That's to be worked out by the parties involved, but a culture of militancy and maximalist positions won't make that an easy problem to solve in the short term. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be moving in that direction, and over time, they will be solved to the general satisfaction of the majority of people.
Are you refugees allowed to return to THEIR homes in Israel and become citizens of Israel?
Doubtful, other than a handful. The rest will be compensated per whatever plan both sides agree to. The situation will eventually be handled just like every other refugee crisis that's ever befallen any population on the planet.
If Arab countries didn't kick out a million Jews, there might have been more of a chance of the descendants of the refugees returning. But now, it just won't happen.
There's no way Israelis will ever let Khaled Mishaal and Musa Abu Marzook set foot in Israel.
"Morocco is 30% Berber. Is Morocco an Arab state?...."
That doesn't answer the question I put forth. Also, I didn't Morocco and the other countries you mention were to be used as the basis for our discussion or set the standards for our discussion. Why not just use America's treatment of the Native Americans and bam, you win.
"That's why all the calls for one state are disingenuous..."
No its not. Its the only viable and just solution.
"There's no way Israelis will ever let Khaled Mishaal and Musa Abu Marzook set foot in Israel."
But those who have killed innocent civilians to create and maintain the state of Israel, like Sharon, Rabin, Shamir, etc. etc. etc. are allowed to run the country?
Or is it their jewishness that makes it OK?
"If Arab countries didn't kick out a million Jews..."
What does this have to do with Palestinians being kicked out of their homes and not being able to return to their land and homes due to action by the founders and maintainers of the state of Israel?
That doesn't answer the question I put forth.
It absolutely does.
If your answer to that question is yes, then the answer to the first question is yes.
If your answer is no, which is fine, then you need to start calling for the dismantling of the Arab League, the removal of the word "Arab" in the official names of countries like Egypt, Syria and Libya and start acting like the issue of equity really is important, instead of selectively targeting what you don't like.
No its not. Its the only viable and just solution.
Sorry, just because you say so doesn't make it true. In fact, the opposite is true. Looking around the region, it is nothing more than a recipe for civil war. That is obvious.
Or is it their jewishness that makes it OK?
It's not about anything making it OK, every leader in the region (including every leader of every Palestinian "faction") has killed people in the name of maintaining their power.
What does this have to do with Palestinians being kicked out of their homes and not being able to return to their land and homes due to action by the founders and maintainers of the state of Israel?
Everything, sadly. There are two refugee populations here. One people decided to remedy their crisis, while the other has chosen to let it fester to use as a political weapon at the expense of its own people.
"Rights" will never be granted to the Sephardic/Mizrahi Jewish refugees, and Israel did the right thing with them.
"Sorry, just because you say so doesn't make it true. In fact, the opposite is true. Looking around the region, it is nothing more than a recipe for civil war. That is obvious."
Giving the indiginous people of the land whose only crime is not being Jewish the right to live in their homes and land is the only Just solution. You challenge its viablity by arguing that a "civil war" would erupt, yet you say its OK to keep 20% of Israel's population Palestinian--yet this has not caused civil war. Is the answer then, in order to keep Israel in a state of un-civil war, we must keep the non-Jewish population to a minority? How much of a minority? Should we regulate their birthrates in order to ensure no civil war?
"It's not about anything making it OK, every leader in the region (including every leader of every Palestinian "faction") has killed..."
"There are two refugee populations here..."
I didn't know Palestinians had to suffer for the sins of others.
I didn't know Palestinians had to suffer for the sins of others..
Well, there's plenty of blame to go around, such as launching there war in 1948 - for which there have been many consequences, especially for launching that war and losing.
Is the answer then, in order to keep Israel in a state of un-civil war, we must keep the non-Jewish population to a minority?
Look at Iraq and Lebanon vs. other regional states that are forced to use either a horrific security apparatus or majority rule to maintain the peace.
This is obvious stuff here - "academic," pretend arguments are nice, but don't reflect the reality of the situation - and are seriously disingenuous. Because you know it's not a "can't we all get along" situation.
Should we regulate their birthrates in order to ensure no civil war?
Nope.
Nice dismissive/issue changing tactics.
August 20 2007: Israel controls the lives of millions, yet denies them the same rights and privileges as Jews living under Israeli soverignety.
My parents can't live in the village of their birth, where they were raised, where they own land, because they are not Jewish.
That's what is going on. Now justify this apartheid in Israel/Palestine perpetuated by the govt. of Israel against non-Jews living under its control with examples of something Morocco, et. al did/do.
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