Craig, you’re simply wrong here. To dumb it down for you a bit, nation refers to the people, state refers to the territory. Look it up, you’re embarrassing yourself here.

pc: I know what bait laham literally means – I was asking why the place is named this. and how can you say bait laham is not an arabic name?

how would expect christians to be tolerant???????????????? you are hopeless.

Craig, I suggest you look up the definition of “nation” and the definition of “state.” The Palestinians are a nation, but do not have a state.

Country, state and nation are synonyms. Perhaps you should look up the definition of “synonym”? Or I can just make it easy on you, and tell you that those are three different words that mean the same thing. So when you imply two of them have different meanings, you are wrong.

Of course, you could be using some vague alternate definition of “nation”, but if that’s the case then you certainly shouldn’t be attaching it to a “national anthem” which is a term the meaning of which is clearly understood, throughout the world.

Craig, I suggest you look up the definition of “nation” and the definition of “state.” The Palestinians are a nation, but do not have a state.

Well… there was that one time the Catholics accidentally sacked Constantinople. Best not to mention it.

So you tell me a lie when you claim you aren’t an atheist, and in the same sentence you tell me your credentials which conveniently would offer you credibility in this argument. And you expect me to believe you. Does that about sum it up?

Hey – maybe in your fantasies the ‘Christians’ will atually WIN this time!

The Christians won every time. I thought you said you were a scholar?

Here is a link, “scholar”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade

The First Crusade succeeded in establishing the “Crusader States” of Edessa, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Tripoli in Palestine and Syria (as well as allies along the Crusaders’ route, such as the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_State

The Crusaders held the Holy Land for 50 years, the first time out. Not bad, for a first attempt

Quite a remarkable accomplishment, for that time period. I think we can do much better now. Most of the fighters in the 1st Crusade got to the Holy Land from Europe by walking there. Not so much of an issue, these days.

I’d only begin to consider it if it was all swords and lances and boilnig oil, though. Um, and of course battle axes.

Perhaps that would reduce the whining about technological advantages, though it seems to me the US military has a very small technological edge over the Israelis. I suppose we might have to empty our prisons and let convicts fight for their freedom, eh? We have… what? Some 3 million felons in our prisons? And maybe 10 million that are free on parole? That’s a lot of hardened criminals

It worked pretty well for Saddam, and he only had 60,000 criminals to release in Iraq.

By the way, since you changed your argument “the US is not a Christian country because it doesn’t have a state religion” – Britain has a state religion. That means the UK is a Christian Country, right? Even though the US (which is fare more religious) is not.

Does that make sense to you? Well, does it?

I’m not an atheist. But I AM a professional scholar doing research in Eighteenth Century British studies. Which is how I know you’re both ignorant and full of shite when it comes to the historical stuff!

As to the other stuff, you haven’t answered any of the points I made with rebuttals of any substance, even though I made them in a less abusive tone than you’re using. Instead, you’re name-calling. So I’m done. I’ll just let you seethe and fantasize about a new Crusade. Hey – maybe in your fantasies the ‘Christians’ will atually WIN this time! If they’re not too busy eating people, like last time around…

Your threads are becoming loonier and loonier.

I thought insanity was what Kabobfest was all about? I posted a comment some time ago that this one is a no-brainer that we shouldn’t even be arguing about. It’s fucking OBVIOUS that the things Diana wanted from Bush are things that would be embarrassments (at best) for Bush and the United States.

And yet, you persisted with the dumb arguments about why he should have gone along with it.

When I asked you what exactly in Christian doctrine nlah blah blah…

That’s not what you asked me. You asked me if there was anything in Christian doctrine. It’s your tendency to retroactively change your the discussion around that convinces me arguing scripture with you would be a waste of time.

His every action flies in the face of Jesus’ teachings.

Here you are, claiming to know Jesus. Again. Do you think he would approve of your behavior in this thread?

(snipped some racism and bigotry)

A few other random correctins to your rant:

As many deliberate lies as you have told, and you’re still issuing “corrections”, eh?

- the colonies in the 18th c. looked a hell of a lot more like our own era — in terms of political institutions, emergent corporate power, type of english spoken, etc. — than the medieval era. Any historian will tell you that.

Nonsense. Any “historian” who tried to tell me that, would be a liar. You just made that up, didn’t you? Just completely made it up. And then endorsed yourself with imaginary historians

Way to go, mister holier-than-thou.

- Of course the discussion of slave labor is relevant

No, it’s not. Slaves do not wield and political power (or any other kind of power) within a state. I used Libya as an example of a Muslim country that employed non-Muslim slave labor during the same time period. Every Arab country employed slave labor during that time period. Did that make them less Arab? Or, less Muslim? Would you say that Saudi Arabia is not a Muslim country, today, because they employ hundreds of thousands of non-Muslim “guest workers”?

Your comments are stupid. Look at them. Seriously. Re-read what you have written. The arguments you make are stupid, and the cheap tactics you use to try to win despite the weakness of your arguments are sleazy.

Stupid and sleazy. That’s you.

-A hell of a lot more people than Jefferson were Desits.

Nonsense. And I challenged your claim that Jefferson was a Unitarian, for that matter.

And it’s a different thing than Unitarianism. Which is a different thing still than Christianity per se.

Again, these are bullshit arguments you are making. The difference between a Trinitarian and a Unitarian, is belief in the trinity. Since the concept of the trinity was invented several hundred years after the death of Jesus, and didn’t exist while he was alive, I think it[‘s a hard sell to claim somebody isn’t a Christian just because they don’t believe in the trinity. That wouldn’t be a LOGICAL position to have. That would be an extremely narrow-minded and dogmatic position to have. Is that you? Narrow-minded and dogmatic?

Again, to say that the Founding Fathers were Christian is oversimplifying.

No, it’s not. The founding fathers were Christians, as much as I am a Christian. Most of them were far more religious than I am, actually.

Read Tom Paine’s (one of the Founding Fathers) “Age of Reason” some time.

This is what I love about you. The assumption that everyone else knows absolutely nothing. Tell me, are you used to dealing with 10 year olds? Blank slates and all that?

You know, I’ve heard all these arguments before. Years ago. It became popular to challenge Thomas Jefferson’s beliefs back in the early 1990s. It became popular to claim the US was built by slaves in the 1980s, wasn’t it?

- If Bush says that he appealed to his Higher Father and then STILL decided to go ahead and bomb little kids (make no mistake, that’s what he did), then, yes, he’s claiming that Jesus said it was ok.

Are you completely insane? If I prayed for guidance about whether I should ask a girl out, and then I asked her out, would that mean Jesus told me I should ask her out?

You are an atheist, aren’t you? No religious person thinks that’s how prayer works.

Why don’t you just come out and say it? Are you afraid people will dismiss what you have to say about religion? They probably do that anyway, because what you say doesn’t make much sense

So maybe you’d actually have the balls to get involved in such a Crusade.

Oh, I would. This one would be coming from the heart, too. Which is something people in the military don’t have going for them, very often.

But most Americans, though they talk a lot of murderous shit from behind a keyboard/bomber flight stick/Presidential podium, are too chickenshit for what you propose. SO you might have trouble raising your Crusader army.

You think so? I think we could recapture a lot of Holy Land with the troops that are in Iraq right now. Maybe, all of it. It’s the Jews that would give us the most problem. But the United States Marine Corps alone is larger than the whole Israeli military, so I think it’s doable with the US military as it stands.

Now that I know you are an atheist, though, I understand why you think access to the Holy Land is such a trivial matter. Perhaps Diana is also an atheist. But a lot of wars have been fought for access to that land in the past. A lot of people died. Trying to tell Christians when they can visit their own holy lands and under what circumstances is not a wise thing to do.

Your threads are becoming loonier and loonier. When I asked you what exactly in Christian doctrine made it offensive to have Abbas accompany Bush to Bethlehem, you copped out saying ‘I won’t argue Scripture with you…but most Americans would be offended’ (as if American public opinion is more important to Christian thought than Jesus’ actual teachings!). Fine, but then don’t tell me that it’s Christianity and not Islampohobia that is fueling the offended feelings. I stick by my points: Bush is an arrogant, belligerent, warmongering poor-people-crushing, environment-raping asshole. His every action flies in the face of Jesus’ teachings. Similarly, most American Christians know very little about the faith they profess. Ask the average bible-thumping American the story of the transmission/passing down of the Gospels. Or about the tensions between Revelations and, say, the book of Luke. They’ll stare at you like retards and fumblingly quote their gay-hating corporate-whore pastor quoting the Bible. That’s not religion — it’s sheepiness. They aren’t offended at the notion of Abbas accompanying Bush to Bethlehem because of anything Jesus said — they’re offended because they are riding along with the easy assumptions of a racist, anti-Muslim culture and they’re too fucking lazy to do anything but what their corrupt pastors and president tell them to do.

A few other random correctins to your rant:

- the colonies in the 18th c. looked a hell of a lot more like our own era — in terms of political institutions, emergent corporate power, type of english spoken, etc. — than the medieval era. Any historian will tell you that.

- Of course the discussion of slave labor is relevant — do you think that a nation-state just magically
happens when you say ‘we are a nation’? No, dude – you need land, houses, crops, and money money money. Almost al of this was made possible through the most widespread, brutal and unrelenting system of slavery the world has ever seen. Without slaves there would have been no U.S. – period, do-not-pass-Go.

-A hell of a lot more people than Jefferson were Desits. And it’s a different thing than Unitarianism. Which is a different thing still than Christianity per se. Again, to say that the Founding Fathers were Christian is oversimplifying. Read Tom Paine’s (one of the Founding Fathers) “Age of Reason” some time.

- If Bush says that he appealed to his Higher Father and then STILL decided to go ahead and bomb little kids (make no mistake, that’s what he did), then, yes, he’s claiming that Jesus said it was ok. ANd you know what? I don’t believe him.

- Finally, your idea about a new crusade is cute in a bloodthirsty way. I’d only begin to consider it if it was all swords and lances and boilnig oil, though. Um, and of course battle axes. I think you said in some earlier thread that you were once in the service (maybe it was someone else)? So maybe you’d actually have the balls to get involved in such a Crusade. But most Americans, though they talk a lot of murderous shit from behind a keyboard/bomber flight stick/Presidential podium, are too chickenshit for what you propose. SO you might have trouble raising your Crusader army.