I hate to be railroaded by the very few individuals who post ignorant comments on this blog, but I feel like posting this particular link. It describes quite well interesting aspects of the historic relationship of Christians and Muslims to the area that is Bethlehem today, and the relationship of the groups to each other.
While I personally have experienced instances of ignorant comments made by Palestinian Christians about Palestinian Muslims and vice versa, my personal observation is that for the most part, feelings of enmity between the communities are dwarfed by the shared hardships faced under occupation. I highly recommend visiting Bethlehem if you are able (if you aren’t Arab, and Israel will let you in, first off), to experience the place and draw your own conclusions.
The land of Palestine is inhabited by a majority of Moslems who, like the Christians and the Jews, venerate many of the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament, and who also feel a special relationship with Bethlehem as the birthplace of the Prophet Jesus (or ‘Isa in Arabic). Of all the Christian saints, Moslems venerate especially Mary, the mother of Jesus, to whom a full sura (chapter 19) in the Koran is dedicated. Moreover, since the beginnings of Islam, Bethlehem was included in the Moslem pilgrimage route that followed the road from Jerusalem, with its Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque, to Hebron, with the tombs of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and their wives Sarah, Rebecca and Leah.The Moslem-Christian living together in Palestine indeed goes back to the beginnings of Islam. Even though there have been periods of proselytizing and, at tragic moments of history, cases of oppression and discrimination, the general picture is one of a Moslem-Christian living together in daily peace, respect and cooperation. It is common to hear Palestinians saying that it does not matter whether one is Moslem or Christian; both believe in the same God, speak the same language and share the same Arabic culture.
Related posts:
- Where’s Bethlehem?
- Merry Christmas, Bethlehem
- Um… Jesus was born there, duh!
- Christmas Under Occupation
- Christians Gone Wild: Apocalypse Now
It’s an interesting topic, but given the historic animosity between the two groups, we would all be better served if you were able to provide us with a more objective website.
While it’s nice to read, a fluff piece doesn’t really help anyone understand the dynamics of what often is a tenuous relationship.
They might share the hardships faced under occupation, but the story really does end there.
Posted by Anonymous | February 6, 2008, 8:08 amPalestinian Christians have always played an important role in the Palestinian resistance. To try and seperate them is foolish.
Posted by أبو سنان | February 6, 2008, 8:33 amThose who claim that Arab Christians and Muslims have had animosity towards each other since the beginning of time are, quite frankly, mistaken. Might I suggest a more nuanced approach – for example, one that has some historical backing. Start with Leila Fawaz’s book, Merchants and migrants in nineteenth-century Beirut. Of course, there have been certain antagonisms. But do you know any heterogeneous country or region that has not had religious issues?
Palestinians were first outraged because of a real territorial loss. It was only later that cultural and then religious identities became a part of the Palestinian cause.
Posted by dj-jas | February 6, 2008, 9:20 amIt describes quite well interesting aspects of the historic relationship of Christians and Muslims to the area that is Bethlehem today
That isn’t the claim you made, Emily.
This is the claim you made:
Bethlehem, a town that has probably the oldest Christian presence in the world, is at risk of losing its Christian heritage as members of the community increasingly leave due to hardships posed by occupation and the construction of the Apartheid Wall.
Which is a lie. The middle-east was Christian for hundreds of years before Islam even existed. All your recent post does is confirm that Palestinian Christians were collaborating with their Muslim oppressors long before the Israelis ever showed up.
What I’d like to see you prove is your claim that Bethlehem is the oldest Christian presence in the world. What are you basing that claim on? Christianity as a religion was born in Asia Minor. I find your claims to be absolutely bizarre. Are you a Christian? If so, how can you make a claim that goes against both recorded history and what is wr9itten in the Bible? Are you that fare gone in your Palestinian cause that you will trash your own religion?
Posted by programmer craig | February 6, 2008, 10:29 amdj-jas,
Those who claim that Arab Christians and Muslims have had animosity towards each other since the beginning of time are
Yeah, because being conquered and occupied by an invader doesn’t cause any animosity, does it?
Arabs, go back to Arabia. And take your fake Christians with you.
Posted by programmer craig | February 6, 2008, 10:33 amBy the way, Emily:
Bethlehem, a town that has probably the oldest Christian presence in the world
If you aren’t Christian, that’s just a lie. If you are a Christian, that’ blasphemy. Is it not? Aren’t you directly contradicted both Christian scripture and the history of Christianity with that one statement?
Posted by programmer craig | February 6, 2008, 10:42 amI speak on behalf of all REAL Christians everywhere. I am like God. As a white boy in the U.S., I demand that the “Christians” of Arabia (who are fake) return to Arabia with the Moslems. Some call this ethnic cleansing. But I – as a white boy in the U.S. – am God.
Posted by programmer craig | February 6, 2008, 10:44 am“pali-american”, why don’t we take a vote amongst the world’s Christians and see if we can vote Palestinian Christians off the Island then? Does that work for you? Works for me. And then they can convert to Islam like they always wanted to. Or they can just become atheists. Or whatever. I don’t really care what they do, I just want them to stop calling themselves Christians when they obviously aren’t. Maybe they can be scientologists.
Posted by programmer craig | February 6, 2008, 10:58 amAlso, Pali-American, you call yourself a Christian, but on your blog you challenged some of the most basic and most important tenets of Christianity, and turned Christian belief into something that favors Islam. That was a couple years ago. That’s a no-no, dear one.
Posted by programmer craig | February 6, 2008, 11:00 amJust have to say it, Programmer Craig you have sunk to a NEW LOW. Arab Christians, Palestinian Christians are “fake” Christians? And just what are you? Hopefully a FAKE ASSHOLE!
Posted by Robin | February 6, 2008, 11:44 amJust have to say it, Programmer Craig you have sunk to a NEW LOW.
Maybe some day I’ll sink as far down into the muck as you are
I’ve seen what you say on Sabbah’s blog. Whatever your religion is (I’m guessing atheist) you are a disgusting human being, and certainly nobody who should be telling Christians what the truth of their own beliefs is. Emily is not the only Palestinian and/or Arab Christian who has turned heretic to support the Palestinian cause. I’ll be damned if I’ll stay silent and watch people who say they are Christians misrepresent their won religion to serve an Islamic cause.
Palestinian activists, do as you wish but leave Christianity the hell out of your unholy crusade.
Posted by programmer craig | February 6, 2008, 12:14 pmwhy is craig so angry? and if he hates arabs so much, then why does he subject himself to a blog full of them? i suppose some people just like to surround themselves with hostility, and feel the need to separate “real” christians from the “fake” ones – not the most christ-like behavior i’ve heard of.
Posted by dj-jas | February 6, 2008, 6:42 pmSorry, wrong, Catholic. But I like these people too
http://www.neumc.org/page.asp?Table
Name=oPages_6KF3UU&PKValue;=178
Are they “fake Christians” Programmed for Hate Craig?
What about these?
http://www.hcef.org/
Or these http://www.sabeel.org/
AHA, I found a British Catholic
http://www.indcatholicnews.com/
kenne437.html
And just to top off the SHORT list
http://www.al-bushra.org/
Enjoy the music PFHC
Posted by Robin | February 6, 2008, 8:08 pmdj-jas,
why is craig so angry?
Why are these bloggers so angry?
and if he hates arabs so much, then why does he subject himself to a blog full of them?
If these bloggers hate Americans and Israelis so much, why do they write in English and not Arabic?
i suppose some people just like to surround themselves with hostility, and feel the need to separate
That’s a pretty funny statement for a Palestinian activist to be making on a blog like this
“real” christians from the “fake” ones
I’m not the one who introduced Christianity into the mix. Emily is. She tried to use Christianity to score points against Jewish Israelis. Not cool. Especially when she had to resort to heresy to do it.
not the most christ-like behavior i’ve heard of.
I’m sure you know all about Christ-like behavior, dj-jas. Jesus was a REAL martyr. How much do YOUR martyrs resemble him? A martyr doesn’t kill for his beliefs. He dies for his beliefs. And if you don’t understand that, you understand nothing about Christ or about Christians. Your martyrs are nothing more than murderers. Cap that with their deliberate acts of suicide and they are surely damned souls. When Palestinian Christians start pointing that out, they can make a claim to being good Christians.
Robin,
Sorry, wrong, Catholic.
Yeah, right. I bet you’re more Catholic than the Pope. What else could you be, when you spend so much time giving Sabbah virtual high-fives everyone time he makes a new fake video about a new fake atrocity?
I didn’t click on any of your links, because you’re a known propagandist and a known liar. The position of American Christians is well known, and often complained about by Palestinians. And most American Christians are actual, for real, believing Christians.
Posted by programmer craig | February 6, 2008, 10:41 pmYou know what, Craig is right. Jesus Christ was born in Atlanta City. The Zio-Protestants are all the true Christians there is. And all So-called Christian Palestinians will burn in firy hell -unless the Israeli army gets to them first, of course.
Posted by b-cell | February 7, 2008, 6:23 amCraig just gets more idiotic by the day. I dont even have to point it out, his own words indict himself.
Posted by أبو سنان | February 7, 2008, 8:00 amAs a palestinian born unto christian parents I would like to know how claiming that bethlehem is the oldest christian city is heresy? Im pretty sure heyzues was born there.
either way, craig is full of hate speech. Christians and muslims in the region have gotten along just fine. They have a common oppressor called Israel to unite them. Any arab from the region can confirm this.
Posted by Mr. Friendly | February 7, 2008, 10:42 amAs a palestinian born unto christian parents I would like to know how claiming that bethlehem is the oldest christian city is heresy? Im pretty sure heyzues was born there.
Jesus wasn’t a Christian. He was a Jew. Christianity didn’t even exist until after he was dead. And Christianity as a religion was born in Asia Minor, as I said before. The first 7 Christian Churches were all in Asia minor. Try reading the Bible, and you’ll find that out for yourself. Bethlehem isn’t even close to being “the oldest Christian city” and to claim that it is, is heresy.
her·e·sy Listen to the pronunciation of heresy
Pronunciation:
\ˈher-ə-sē, ˈhe-rə-\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural her·e·sies
Etymology:
Middle English heresie, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin haeresis, from Late Greek hairesis, from Greek, action of taking, choice, sect, from hairein to take
Date:
13th century
1 a: adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma b: denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church c: an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma2 a: dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice b: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards
What else can one call a statement by a Christian that completely contradicts both Christian scripture and the historical records of the region?
either way, craig is full of hate speech. Christians and muslims in the region have gotten along just fine.
Why is that, Edmund? They shouldn’t get along “just fine”. Christians in teh ME have been horribly oppressed by Muslims, for centuries. What do you call somebody who not only gets along “just fine” with his oppressor, but who fully supports his own oppression? What do you call somebody who is so supportive of the goals of a DIFFERENT RELIGION that he twists the basic tenets of his own religion into knots, in order to make it compliant?
They have a common oppressor called Israel to unite them. Any arab from the region can confirm this.
Exactly. Palestinian Christians have been so brainwashed by Islam that they forget their oppression began 1400 years ago, when there were no Jews in sight.
Why is that, Edmund? Can you explain? Because I don’t think any non-”Arab” Christian gets it? Christians and Jews have never been enemies. Christians and Muslims have been enemies the beginning of Islam.
Posted by programmer craig | February 7, 2008, 11:49 amBy the way, it’s very telling how many of the bloggers here are Palestinian Christians, isn’t it? Why is it that nobody would even be able to tell the difference between a Palestinian Christian and a Palestinian Muslim, based on their behavior and their statements? Are Christianity and Islam really so similar?
Where I come from, Christians don’t support murderers. And we don’t support suicide. All the Palestinian “Christians” here, do both. Every single day. What kind of Christianity is that?
Posted by programmer craig | February 7, 2008, 11:54 amCraig just gets more idiotic by the day. I dont even have to point it out, his own words indict himself.
Abu Sinan, I don’t even need to respond to a self-professed “former” white supremacist and “former” Christian who converted to Islam. Do I? Your opinion is worth less than dirt.
Posted by programmer craig | February 7, 2008, 11:55 amHmmmmmmmmm, “Christians and Jews have never been ememies” That’s sure a new one on me! Everyone of them has been at each other’s throats at one time or another. But what’s the point? The topic here is Christian and Muslim Palestinians and how they are united against a common enemy-Israel, that has NOTHING to do with religion other than this PFHC, a political movement which benefits Jewish people ONLY decided to make a “God claim” on a land in which DIFFERENT people than they ALSO lived. In order to create a JEWISH state, then the others had to be moved OUT. Do you expect there to be no animosity over this PFHC? Because Muslims AND Christians were included in the eviction order. Are you ok with that PFHC? As a supposed “Christian” in order to make your argument you have to make Palestinian Christians which include SEVERAL sects of Christianity in to lesser human beings. Is that what Christ taught PFHC?
PFHC-honestly, are you open to learning ANYTHING at all? Would you be willing to tell us what your own SPECIFIC faith is, as in give us a link to something about it? It sure would be interesting, because unlike you who refused above to link to the links I gave which the first one linked to the Methodist Church, I LIKE to learn about what people believe, because that gives me the chance to engage in an INTELLIGENT conversation. Intelligence meaning KNOWLEDGE, something you are sorely lacking in.
Posted by Robin | February 7, 2008, 2:18 pmPFHC-honestly, are you open to learning ANYTHING at all?
Learning from you? But you are a propagandist, robin. Are you suggesting I should voluntarily allow myself to be brainwashed?
No. But thanks for the offer.
Posted by programmer craig | February 7, 2008, 4:00 pmOH PFHC, I said I wanted to learn from YOU. Please PFHC, enlighten all of us with sharing your faith. I already know what I know up til now, if you open up a little bit and give us something to read, maybe we will all become convinced. Hint hint, I happen to think it doesn’t matter WHAT one believes, it matters how one treats their fellow man. I also seem to recall something about “doing unto others as you would have done unto you” WITHOUT any caveats, which would pretty surely include Muslims too wouldn’t you think?
Posted by Robin | February 7, 2008, 7:40 pmHint hint
So first you tell me you want me to share my opinions, and then you give me “hints” about how I can better understand yours?
I happen to think it doesn’t matter WHAT one believes, it matters how one treats their fellow man.
And how do you treat your “fellow man”, Robin? You make false accusations, you lie, you insult…
Do I really have to quote from scripture about what the fate of liars and people who bear false witness is? Because, if that’s what you want, I will.
I also seem to recall something about “doing unto others as you would have done unto you” WITHOUT any caveats
Is that what you do?
which would pretty surely include Muslims too wouldn’t you think?
Does it include me? Does it include Israelis?
And don’t spout the “Golden Rule” at me and pretend like that qualifies you as a Christian. Especially since, from what I’ve seen, you are even worse at following it than I am. By a LOT.
Posted by programmer craig | February 7, 2008, 7:53 pmBook of Revelation 22:12-15
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
“Without” = outside of the Kingdom of God.
The part in bold is a damnation you are well qualified for. You surely do love the lies you tell about Israelis and Jews, do you not? It’s the passion of your existence. I can think of very few people I’ve encountered that those words apply to more fully.
And Sabbah has freely admitted that he published falsehoods on his blog in order to promote the Palestinian cause. I don’t know if he’s Christian or not, but you claim to be, and you are his biggest supporter and cheerleader.
Posted by programmer craig | February 7, 2008, 8:06 pmdude, religion is for people who need imaginary friends.
Try growing up and looking at facts instead of comic books “found” in a cave.
Posted by enon | February 7, 2008, 8:28 pmI’ll wait to see how all the people on this blog who claim they are “real” Christians deal with you, enon.
You want to go first, miss “Catholic”?
Posted by programmer craig | February 7, 2008, 8:34 pmIm sure people on this blog are able to see beyond religious lines and judge a person on their character and actions instead of generalizing about an entire race or religion.
You may want to try being less closed minded craig
Posted by Mr. Friendly | February 7, 2008, 8:42 pmMy sentiments precisely Edmond. One’s belief or NON-belief in anything is only meaningful within the context of how one treats others. My father is an atheist and I could NOT care less.
Fact is, PFHC not all Jews are Zionists, not by a long shot, nor are all Israelis-MANY feel that the laws of Israel treat non-Jews unjustly, and by unjustly PFHC-just look to the Basic Laws, the Land and Property Laws are a real good place to start Since you don’t like me to give you links, be a real scholar and look them up for yourself. Since Zionism was the conqueror, don’t you think they set up a system real similar to the laws of the US, you know, all those civil rights and anti-discrimination laws we are so proud of? I think those laws are very “Christian”. Don’t you?
And Sabbah did not admit to posting falsehoods, he admitted to a MISTAKE, a picture included in a video by MISTAKE, a human error, something that people of integrity have no problem admitting to and rectifying when they can. Does that make me his biggest cheerleader Craig by stating a FACT or does what you stated about him make you a bold faced liar? Give it up Craig, trying to smear people with falsehoods as you stated is
“”Without” = outside of the Kingdom of God.
BTW PFHC, you still haven’t given us a link for us to learn more about your faith. Bible verses being slung about don’t cut it.
You ALSO have not answered the question that I posed to you: How do you come to grips with the fact that Palestinian CHRISTIANS were included in expulsion? Does that bother you, or are they still “fake” Christians and YOU the Christian from a land having NO ties whatsoever to their historical lands are the “real” Christian in telling them they should just suck it up and make way for the Zionists?
Oh goodness, I think you just gave us a hint of where you are coming from by quoting Revelations, are you waiting for the rapture PFHC? Is that why you need to do what you do, support all Jews no matter WHAT they do (and I am specifically speaking of Zionists, NOT Jews in general)so you can get in on the action after Armageddon. I don’t want to jump to any conclusions, but most people who start out quoting Revelations are of this belief. BTW, it was written by John of Patmos
http://www.christian-community.
org/library/revelheresy.html
Just in case you wanted to talk scripture PFHC.
“If one still wonders about “Revelation,” we really need to ask only one question. “Whose Jesus kills innocent little children?”
Not my Jesus! Not Apostle John’s friend! Only John Patmos’ Jesus does that.”
A little corny on that last one, but I think one gets the drift.
Posted by Robin | February 7, 2008, 10:38 pmMy sentiments precisely Edmond. One’s belief or NON-belief in anything is only meaningful within the context of how one treats others. My father is an atheist and I could NOT care less.
Oh, and here I thought you said you were a believing Catholic, robin! Not so much, huh? You just saw an atheist insult all people of faith, and you chose to defend him and attack me? Wow… what a shocker!
Turns out you are Catholic in name only, huh? Well, so my original assertion that you were an atheist was right. What were we supposed to be discussing again? About how I didn’t have a right to call people “fake” Christians?
Posted by programmer craig | February 7, 2008, 11:15 pmSusan,
I’m going to ignore your full frontal assault on Christian beliefs, because we’ve already established you are an atheist.
PS-What’s up with the PFCH crap, Jennifer?
Posted by programmer craig | February 7, 2008, 11:22 pmLord have mercy PFHC, you can read just about anything into something that your hate filled mind can construe. You see, enon’s non-belief does NOT bother me, nor should it you. Trying to be every body else’s religious thought police just isn’t anyone’s business PFHC, the ONLY thing that is our business is honoring our creator by TREATING others well. When one’s “religious” beliefs set themselves up as the sole beneficiaries of God’s mercy and the belief they have the right to oppress others, there is something WRONG with that.
Quite honestly, you DO follow a comic book mentality, try the Marvel comic books, filled with lots of superheroes and violence.
As the quote above states, that is not MY “Jesus”, btw, a man honored by Muslims. Do you know what PFHC, they believe that when the world ends JESUS will return. Did you know that PFHC? Or does the thought of learning about or respecting others beliefs WHATEVER they are really make you that uncomfortable?
As for this conversation, it has gone astray and I apologize for that. I have many friends of all faiths as most reasonable people do. Whether Muslim or Christian, Palestinians are suffering equally from the occupation. May goodness and mercy grant them peace soon, for our creator would wish for nothing less.
Posted by Robin | February 7, 2008, 11:47 pmYou see, enon’s non-belief does NOT bother me, nor should it you.
You see, Rubin, that’s how it becomes apparent you are an atheist. The issue wasn’t his “non-belief” – the issue was his vicious attack on believers. He’s a bigot.
You totally missed the boat on that. How is that? Because you aren’t a believer. Which is fine. But you claimed that you were, earlier in this thread. You lied. Which is what you always do. It’s your modus operandi.
You chose to defend an atheists “right” to be a bigot, and attacked me for asserting that some people who claim they are Christians, actually aren’t. It’s not bigotry on my part to point out that some people who pretend to be my co-religionists are actual poseurs, is it?
I’m glad we had this little talk. Now go forth and pretend to be a Christian no more.
Posted by programmer craig | February 8, 2008, 12:18 amBy the way, the condemnation of liars to hell is not only in Revelations. Being a liar is condemned throughout the New Testament. It’s one of the worst faults a Christian can have, as a habitual liar is destroying his/her own soul. Living a lie destroys the spirit. Not to mention the harm that it does to others. Don’t take my word for it. Read the Bible, “Catholic”. I could quote more scripture to you, and you can accuse me of being a fundamentalist again. You think all believing Christians are “fundamentalists”, huh? The only moderate Christians are the ones who don’t actual believe in the validity of Christian teachings, right?
That was kind of my original point, Ricky.
And your crap about Sabbah is just that… crap. I confronted him about half a dozen faked videos he had posted on his blog, and he just deleted my comments. The only reason he fessed up to it here is that he can’t delete comments here. And even after he admitted it was fake (which he already knew, he always knows, and so do you) he proudly proclaimed that it didn’t bother him in the slightest to publish faked atrocities, as long as it was good PR for his cause.
Posted by programmer craig | February 8, 2008, 12:27 amAgain I ask why you, craig, post only on the blogs of arabs an muslims yet don’t actually have a blog yourself. I mean one would think someone who is a programmer would have the time to do such a thing. Well maybe you did have a blog, and then your asian wife left you and life in california has never been the same….
Posted by enon | February 9, 2008, 10:13 am