Those poor Israeli soldiers, eh? Dealing with civilian protestors from Nil’in objecting to the theft of their land for the benefit of illegal settlements, the soldiers are becoming increasingly frustrated at the villagers refusal to just shutup and give in.
So they shoot them.
Last week imaged were broadcast around the world of an Israeli soldier shooting Ashraf Abu Rahmeh in the foot as he was bound and blindfolded and held by a lieutenant. Claiming that the soldier in question does NOT represent the astronomically high ethics of the Israeli Occupation Forces, the Israeli authorities promptly returned him back to his unit in Nil’in.
Yesterday, one of his comrades, doubtless inspired by the impunity presented to the army to carry out any abuses it wished, went further, shooting 10 year old Ahmad Moussa in the forehead.
There have been over 70 Palestinian children killed by Israeli soldiers in this year alone.
Related posts:
- Footage of Israeli Soldiers Beating Palestinian Children
- 2 captured Israeli soldiers still alive
- Israel kills kids in the West Bank too
- The most moral army in the world
- Palestinian Women Stop Israeli Army
Mhmd, answer the following question:
Are you a member of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA)?
Until you answer this question, we can only conclude that you are a member of NAMBLA. See, I can’t respond to your posts or your message, so all I’m left to do is distract people with idiotic assertions.
Posted by Mitch's Mom | July 30, 2008, 11:24 amMhmd, answer the following question:
Are you a member of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA)?
Until you answer this question, we can only conclude that you are a member of NAMBLA. See, I can’t respond to your posts or your message, so all I’m left to do is distract people with idiotic assertions.
Posted by Mitch's Mom | July 30, 2008, 11:24 amMhmd, answer the following question:
Are you a member of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA)?
Until you answer this question, we can only conclude that you are a member of NAMBLA. See, I can’t respond to your posts or your message, so all I’m left to do is distract people with idiotic assertions.
Posted by Mitch's Mom | July 30, 2008, 11:24 amMhmd, answer the following question:
Are you a member of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA)?
Until you answer this question, we can only conclude that you are a member of NAMBLA. See, I can’t respond to your posts or your message, so all I’m left to do is distract people with idiotic assertions.
Posted by Mitch's Mom | July 30, 2008, 11:24 amMhmd, answer the following question:
Are you a member of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA)?
Until you answer this question, we can only conclude that you are a member of NAMBLA. See, I can’t respond to your posts or your message, so all I’m left to do is distract people with idiotic assertions.
Posted by Mitch's Mom | July 30, 2008, 11:24 amMhmd, answer the following question:
Are you a member of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA)?
Until you answer this question, we can only conclude that you are a member of NAMBLA. See, I can’t respond to your posts or your message, so all I’m left to do is distract people with idiotic assertions.
Posted by Mitch's Mom | July 30, 2008, 11:24 amMhmd, answer the following question:
Are you a member of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA)?
Until you answer this question, we can only conclude that you are a member of NAMBLA. See, I can’t respond to your posts or your message, so all I’m left to do is distract people with idiotic assertions.
Posted by Mitch's Mom | July 30, 2008, 11:24 amLet us know when an Israelis soldier kidnaps a 4 year old Palestinian girl and crushed her skull, then Israel declares a national holiday to celebrate his heroism.
Posted by programmer craig | July 30, 2008, 12:34 pmWhat do Kuntar’s actions have to do with this PC?
Posted by Fadi | July 30, 2008, 12:43 pmWhat do Kuntar’s actions have to do with this PC?
Nothing! But the way you KABOB festers have been celebrating Kuntar’s heroism has very much to do with this. Right?
Posted by programmer craig | July 30, 2008, 1:22 pmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
Hypocrisy (or the state of being a hypocrite) is the act of preaching a certain belief or way of life, but not, in fact, holding these same virtues oneself. For example, a teacher telling students they should not plagiarize, while secretly being a plagiarist himself. Hypocrisy is frequently invoked as an accusation in many contexts.
Posted by programmer craig | July 30, 2008, 1:28 pmA border police officer was also wounded during the protest when a stone struck his eye.
Zionist forces suppressing peaceful protests, eh? I can see why the border policemen would be frustrated, being pelted with rocks.
Posted by Anonymous | July 30, 2008, 1:52 pmMohammad, are you SERIOUSLY trying to reestablish your badly shaken image as a defender of human rights? Then answer these three questions, which you have been evading for two days.
1) Do you support Hamas launching rockets and mortars at Israel?
2) Do you support Palestinians employing homicide bombers to target Israeli civilians?
3) Do you support the kidnapping of Israelis by Arabs?
Posted by Mitch | July 30, 2008, 1:53 pmThis boy was just a “soft target”, right Tarik?!
“and the whole debacle gives the Pali-propaganda machine hella material to falsely portray Palestinians as a truly benevolent, peaceful “neighbor” who makes painful sacrifices to the enemy in the name of “peace” and “reconciliation”- RIGHT?”
Posted by Anonymous | July 30, 2008, 1:58 pmPC, I’ve asked you to point out where we celebrated Kuntar on the comments section of that specific post. You didn’t, yet still use that accusation to avoid this topic.
Under international law, Israeli forces are illegal occupiers in the West Bank. So if one gets hit with a stone in his eye, that still gives them no right to oppress and kill.
Posted by Mohammad | July 30, 2008, 2:01 pmWho was celebrating Kuntar’s “herorism”? (for the record, you referred to his actions as heroic, not us). Right now, you’re resorting to outright lies. Here is what a “KABOB fester” wrote about him:
“The most disgusting part of it all is the kuntar dude. sick bastard– and the media is truly demonizing him as a viscous murderer (which he probably is), however the “reception” he received back in lebanon was that of a “hero”? can anyone confirm that? i cant believe that lebanese would be proud”
Posted by Fadi | July 30, 2008, 2:02 pmUnder international law, Israeli forces are illegal occupiers in the West Bank. So if one gets hit with a stone in his eye, that still gives them no right to oppress and kill.
You are utterly misinformed on international law. Occupation is a legal instrument of war. Thus, the Geneva Conventions dictate responsibilities of both the occupying power and the occupied population.
Waging terrorist or guerrilla warfare is not accepted as a legitimate form of resistance under international law.
Israel is not an illegal occupier. At worst, they are a legal occupier. However, the fact that there exists a national Palestinian Authority, which is a democratically elected representative of the Palestinian people, means that most responsibilities of the occupying force are delegated to the PA. The IDF is only in charge of security as it pertains to protecting its own population, and to managing Palestinian borders and airspace.
All Palestinian combatants authorized by the PA to combat the occupying force MUST respect the rules of war, including identifying themselves as combatants. Combatants posing as civilians and throwing rocks at the occupying force is an illegal activity under international law.
Posted by Anonymous | July 30, 2008, 2:36 pm“The IDF is only in charge of security as it pertains to protecting its own population, and to managing Palestinian borders and airspace.”
Anonymous, do you not understand that the transferring of civilian populations to an occupied territory is illegal? The IDF’s presence in Nil’in is strictly about the security of Israel’s settlement project.
Posted by Fadi | July 30, 2008, 2:38 pmMohammad, I am surprised at this post! We have established you are in support of indiscriminate killing of civilians. I was expecting you to celebrate the killing of this boy.
Posted by Anonymous | July 30, 2008, 2:39 pmThe IDF’s presence in Nil’in is strictly about the security of Israel’s settlement project.
This is legally debatable, pending final status resolution currently under negotiations by both parties in the conflict.
What is not debatable is that the PA has not authorized an indigenous Palestinian combatant army to contest the occupying force.
Thus, the actions of Palestinian unauthorized combatants are in violation of international law, and are to be condemned.
Posted by Anonymous | July 30, 2008, 2:43 pmhaha, what combatant army!!! you think some kids allegedly throwing stones is a combatant army!?!? How dumb.
There’s nothing debatable about the illegality of Israel transferring civilians to an occupied territory. Illegal, plain and simple. Negotiating territory that is occupied does not legally remove its status as “occupied” and remove the territory from the scope of the 4th geneva conv.
Posted by Fadi | July 30, 2008, 2:52 pmHaven’t you also established that Mohammed is a pedophile. I mean, same logic u’re forwarding, right. He must be a pedophile b/c he’s certainly a member of NAMBLA (see first comment by Mitch’s mother)
Posted by Fadi | July 30, 2008, 2:53 pmMohammad is a pedophile?
Posted by Anonymous | July 30, 2008, 3:14 pmJust because she is under 18 doesn’t make him a Pedophile. Statutory rape does not exist in Sharia. We got your back, Mo!
Posted by uday | July 30, 2008, 3:16 pmWTF?!!!
Posted by Anonymous | July 30, 2008, 3:20 pmMohammed and Fadi, that’s a lot of blah blah blah and you know it! You were happy and proud about Hezbollah’s “victory” in getting that child-killer released, so live with the consequences. Suck it up. You asked for it. Why do you think nobody should hold you guys responsible for your own sick ideologies?
Posted by programmer craig | July 30, 2008, 3:21 pmFadi, he can just say “no, I’m not a member of NAMBLA”. Why is that so difficult.
As for the pedophile, I don’t know Mohammad that well. Just kidding! You can pedophile me anytime, MoMo
Posted by maytha | July 30, 2008, 3:25 pmhaha, what combatant army!!! you think some kids allegedly throwing stones is a combatant army!?!? How dumb.
Army or not, they are combatants.
There’s nothing debatable about the illegality of Israel transferring civilians to an occupied territory. Illegal, plain and simple.
Strange how you care so much about the law only when the law suits you, Fadi. How do you feel about Hezbollah’s illegal war on israel? You like that part, right?
Negotiating territory that is occupied does not legally remove its status as “occupied” and remove the territory from the scope of the 4th geneva conv.
Geneva conventions now, is it? What do the Geneva conventions say about hostage taking? And about kidnapping and murder of 4 year old girls?
Need me to find that for ya, buddy?
Posted by programmer craig | July 30, 2008, 3:36 pmPC, they haven’t even read the Geneva Conventions, much less learned how to apply them. Someone told them the Geneva Conventions were a useful weapon in the war against Israel, so they use it, thinking it supports their “resistance”.
It doesn’t.
They think that just because there are 50 Arab and Muslim states in the UN and only 1 Jewish state, that International Law must be on the Palestinians’ side.
It isn’t.
Posted by Anonymous | July 30, 2008, 3:47 pm“Let us know when an Israelis soldier kidnaps a 4 year old Palestinian girl and crushed her skull, then Israel declares a national holiday to celebrate his heroism.”
I don’t know about a “holiday” but Israel has rewarded many terrorists and murderers with positions in government and other honors.
Ariel Sharon murdered Arab women and children in the village of Qibya and was directly responsible for the massacres of women and children in the Sabra and Shatila massacres. They made him prime minister.Ehud Barak was a terrorist who murdered a Palestinian writer as well as his wife and daughter. They made him a prime minister, too. Ditto for terrorist murderers Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir. Notice a trend here? If Baruch Goldstein, the psychopath who murdered 29 Muslim men, women and children and wounded over 150 more had survived the attack, I am sure he’d have a crack at prime minister or at least a seat on the Knesset. As it is the poor guy has to settle for a public monument celebrating his “heroism” in his home town.
Posted by Sean | July 30, 2008, 8:38 pm“You are utterly misinformed on international law. Occupation is a legal instrument of war. Thus, the Geneva Conventions dictate responsibilities of both the occupying power and the occupied population.
While it is certainly true than an occupation *can be* legal under international law, there is no country on the planet that recognizes Israel’s occupation of the West Bank as legal, not even the United States. Under UN Resolution 242–which is binding on all UN members, and has the force of law–Israel is ordered to withdraw from the West Bank. Israel’s refusal to do so constitutes a violation of 242 and thus renders continued occupation illegal. 242 further emphasizes “the inadmissibility of acquisition of territory by war.” Furthermore, Resolution 181 establishes the existence of a Palestinian state, and thus Israel’s occupation amounts to a violation of Palestinian sovereignty.
Even if we argue that israel’s occupation is or was at one time legal, Israel has failed the requirements of a legal occupation by attempting to permanently annex portions of the land through creating settlements and transfering its population into that territory. This a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibits significant alterations to enemy terrain and the transfer of a combatant’s population into occupied territory. Thus whatever legality Israel’s occupation may have had immediately following the 1967 war went out the window in 1968 when Meir Kahane etablished the first illegal settlement in the West Bank with Labor Party assistance. From then on, Israel’s presence in the West Bank constituted an unlawful attempt to acquire and hold territory through force. It is disingenuous in the extreme not to point out this change in character of the occupation nullfies any lawful purpose it may have had. Of course, the international community has never recognized any lawful purpose to Israel’s occupation so the point is moot anyway.
Israel’s repeated violations of the Hague Conference, Geneva Convention, and other aspects of international law render the occupation illegal. Israeli policies such as the creation of settlements, destruction of homes, farms and groves, collective punishments, detention without trial, restrictions on freedom of movement and curfews, repression of dissent and free speech, denial of food and medical care, denial of access to employment, extradjudicial killings, the deliberate targeting and killing of civilians including children and the forced expatriation of Palestinian citizens all constitute severe violations of the Geneva Convention and it would be absurd and barbaric for any international body to sanction such conduct by declaring the occupation legal. In point of fact, resolution 242 and numerous other resolutions aimed at Israel’s unlawful conduct clearly establish that it is not.
“Waging terrorist or guerrilla warfare is not accepted as a legitimate form of resistance under international law.”
In point of fact the Geneva Convention allows an occupied people to form a milita to resist an illegal invasion or occupation. Israel’s occupation is clearly recognized as illegal under international law and UN Resolutions, regardless of Israel’s crude and ridiculous arguments to the contrary. It doesn’t require that a governing body like the Palestinian Authority or anyone else sanction the militia, only that the militia follow the rules of war, which among other things prohibit attacks against civilians. So shooting Israeli soldiers under any cirumstances from the second they set foot in Gaza or the West Bank is perfectly legal. Firing rockets at Sderot is not.
The Geneva Cnvention also requires that the legitimate use of military force must be proportional: you can’t wipe out a whole city becasue a sniper is hiding there somewhere, and you can’t shoot a kid for throwing a rock. A child with a rock can be dealt with without resorting to extreme violence. Aside from questions of international law, anybody who shoots a kid because he threw a rock is a lowlife piece of shit in my book, as is anyone who defends him.
Posted by Sean | July 30, 2008, 9:09 pmKabob should disable comments, this attempt at slander my commenters is pathetic.
Posted by Benjamin | July 31, 2008, 5:17 amI am amazed at the slew of comments to distract/justify the shooting of a 10 year old boy in the forehead.
It is WRONG! That’s all there is to it.
Posted by Sara | July 31, 2008, 5:37 amZio-twats, stop making shit up:
Article 1(4) of the 1st Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions, 1977:
“The Geneva Declaration on Terrorism states: ‘As repeatedly recognized by the United Nations General Assembly, peoples who are fighting against colonial domination and alien occupation and against racist regimes in the exercise of their right of self-determination have the right to use force to accomplish their objectives within the framework of international humanitarian law….”
The Commission on Human Rights (CHR Resolution 3 XXXV, 21 February 1979 and CHR Resolution 1989/19, 6 March 1989):
“…routinely reaffirms the legitimacy of struggling against occupation by all available means, including armed struggle…”
UN General Assembly Resolution 37/43, adopted 3 December 1982:
“Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle.”
Posted by NOX | July 31, 2008, 7:19 amYeah, and the part you should have been focusing on is:
“within the framework of international humanitarian law”
Occupation is a legal instrument of war. Resisting occupation is also a legal instrument of war, so long as a national authority exists to initiate armed combat. Given that the PA is in protracted peace negotiations with the State of Israel, and no such directive has been given to legitimate Palestinian security forces, any act of violence by Palestinians against the occupying force, and even more so the civilians in Israel, is in violation of the rules of war and contradicts the Geneva conventions.
Palestinians cannot commit wholesale violations of the rules of war, or transgress all other Geneva conventions relating to protection of civilians, identifying yourself as a combatant, etc., in their war against Israel.
By the way, post the links to those quotes. It’s a common courtesy of blogging. Otherwise, your quotes are suspect to be invalid.
Posted by Anonymous | July 31, 2008, 8:04 amI am amazed at the slew of comments to distract/justify the decades of violence perpetrated by Palestinians against Israel. I am also appalled by the anti-semitism of those who bemoan the death of one child, while celebrating the murder of another, simply because the first is Palestinian and the second Jewish.
It is WRONG! That’s all there is to it.
Posted by Nox | July 31, 2008, 8:09 am1) Do you support Hamas launching rockets and mortars at Israel?
YES, I consider this a legitimate form of resistance.
2) Do you support Palestinians employing homicide bombers to target Israeli civilians?
YES, I consider this a legitimate form of resistance.
3) Do you support the kidnapping of Israelis by Arabs?
YES, I consider this a legitimate form of resistance.
Posted by Mohammad | July 31, 2008, 8:11 amThank you Mohammad.
I actually respect your sincerity.
You believe strongly that Palestinians should have the right to indiscriminately murder Israeli civilians. Since really the target of all these violent actions are Jewish Israelis, you believe that the targeting of Jewish civilians with indiscriminate acts of murder, in particular, is legitimate.
Don’t misunderstand. This is your prerogative. I simply wanted to make it public.
Posted by Mitch | July 31, 2008, 9:38 amthat wasn’t mohammad. he wasn’t logged in.
Posted by ally | July 31, 2008, 1:13 pmIs it just me, or does it seem like every time an Israel soldier shoots a Palestinian kid, some Israeli soldier in the vicinity always manages to get hit right in the eye with a rock, as if to remind us of just what deadly projectiles rocks can be. Of course, Israel always explains away the disproportionate number of Palestinian kids getting shot in the head as the result of ricochets or accidents, or because the kids were used as human shields. It is rarely the result of aimed fire.
It seems it is harder for an Israeli sniper to shoot Palestinian kids in the head on purpose than it is for a Palestinian kid with a rock to hit an Israeli soldier in the eye on purpose.
It must be those laser-guided smart rocks they are using.
Posted by Sean | July 31, 2008, 2:09 pm“Occupation is a legal instrument of war. Resisting occupation is also a legal instrument of war, so long as a national authority exists to initiate armed combat.”
That’s nonsense. A legitimate resistance does not require the existence of a national authority. How can a national authority exist if a people is under occupation? Any authority exercised by such a body would be strictly at the sufferance of the occupier and would not enjoy sovereign equality with the occupying power, the way nation states do. They would be negotiating at the end of a gun barrel. Most likely the occupying power would destroy any attempt to establish a truly independent national authority, and would only allow a collection of Quislings to fill such a role, as the Nazis did throughour Europe during WWII. Did the resistance movements in Europe have to get permission of their respective Quisling governments to fight the Nazis? Of course not. The idea is patently absurd.
“Given that the PA is in protracted peace negotiations with the State of Israel, and no such directive has been given to legitimate Palestinian security forces, any act of violence by Palestinians against the occupying force, and even more so the civilians in Israel, is in violation of the rules of war and contradicts the Geneva conventions.”
Again, this is nonsense. The occupation is illegal, period, and so long as Israeli soldiers occupy Palestinian territory, they are legitimate military targets. Violence aginst Israeli civilians is a violation of the rules of war, but not violence aginst the Israeli military either inside or outside of Palestinian territory. If what you are saying were true, an aggressor could invade another country, establish a Quisling government to run it, then engage in an endless series of “peace talks” while insisting that it had the right to occupy the conquered territory pending disposition of the talks as well as enjoy immunity from attacks by any resistance movement just so long as it continues “negotiations” with the “national authority.” This is of course patently ridiculous, and international law has not been established to provide so many ludicrous loopholes to would-be conquerors, but in fact to protect the right of native peoples to self-determination, which is one of the first principles of international law, so much so that the right to self-determination is the first principle of international law mentioned in the UN Charter. It doesn’t say a damn thing in the UN Charter or any other human rights instrument that occupying soldiers have a right not to get shot at, just that resistance movements must follow the rules of war when they do so.
“Palestinians cannot commit wholesale violations of the rules of war, or transgress all other Geneva conventions relating to protection of civilians, identifying yourself as a combatant, etc., in their war against Israel.”
But Israel can do so against the Palestinians? The occupation itself is illegal. Every thing that occurs as the result of the occupation is therefore also illegal. Even if Israel otherwise followed the rules of war, which it sure as hell doesn’t, it’s actions would still be illegal by virtue of the fact they have no right to occupy Palestinian territory in the first place. It would be like arguing I have a right to break into your house and shoot you in self-defense when you try to drive me out.
Posted by Sean | July 31, 2008, 2:41 pmIt seems it is harder for an Israeli sniper to shoot Palestinian kids in the head on purpose than it is for a Palestinian kid with a rock to hit an Israeli soldier in the eye on purpose.
It’s very easy for an Israeli sniper to shoot Palestinians on purpose. The fact that it doesn’t happen, except in combat situations or “fog of war” accidents should tell you something.
The Palestinian National Authority is the legitimate, elected and sole internationally recognized representative of the Palestinian people. If it wishes to choose war with Israel, it is free to do so, as it has in the past.
Palestinians acting outside the authority of the PNA are illegal combatants under the rules of war. They are not “resisting occupation”; they are violating international agreements signed by their national leadership. This can be demonstrated by the condemnation of terror attacks against Israel by the PNA. Terror groups are combatants, and can thus be dealt with as combatants under international law. They have no legal right to engage in violence.
Yes, self determination is precisely what is at stake, but not for the Palestinians. The world has bent itself backwards to accommodate the self-determination of the Palestinians.
It is the self-determination of the Jewish people that was and is at stake, and the refusal of Palestinians to accept a Jewish state on Jewish land.
Jewish defensive military actions have allowed the State of Israel to grow, if nothing else than for the sake of securing its people from relentless Arab assault through a minimal of strategic depth; this is not illegal. Every nation in the world has gained and lost territory in war.
Palestinians expect to be allowed to attack Jewish population centers, indiscriminately, as they have been doing since before 1929, and avoid retribution.
The Jewish people have been subject to war crimes at the hands of Palestinian mobs, raiders, murderers, and terrorists for nearly a century now.
The only way to accept the Palestinian viewpoint is by denying the context of vicious Arab hostility to and violence against the Jewish residents of the State of Israel since before its founding.
Palestinian self-determination is supported by all sides, including the Israelis, except the Palestinians themselves, who have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, and all for the sake of war, violence and spilled blood.
You, Sean, know nothing about this conflict. Stick to protecting Chavez and making a hero out of Castro.
Posted by Sara | July 31, 2008, 3:45 pmNo need to be patronizing.
Doesn’t mean he can’t learn.
Read Benny Morris’s Righteous Victims.
He’s a pretty balanced, intellectual writer who backs facts with sources. Righteous Victims is a great primer on the last hundred years in Palestine, without much editorializing. Read the Editorial Reviews.
Posted by Anonymous | July 31, 2008, 4:03 pmIt’s very easy for an Israeli sniper to shoot Palestinians on purpose. The fact that it doesn’t happen, except in combat situations or “fog of war” accidents should tell you something.
That’s not true and you KNOW it. Are you trying to say that 70 children were ‘accidentally’ shot and killed by Israeli soldiers in the past 7 months? And that doesn’t even include those that were wounded.
Posted by ally | July 31, 2008, 4:22 pmSean, thank you.
So sad that you had to go through all that to detract those who were justifying the murder of a ten year old boy.
Posted by Mohammad | July 31, 2008, 4:33 pmHow many children were killed by Palestinian combat actions in the last 7 months? Wasn’t there just a cafe that exploded in Gaza a few days – the product of a civil war between Hamas and Fatah – in which children were killed?
I don’t know where you are getting your facts. What we BOTH know is that if Israel wanted to start killing Palestinians, bullets are not the most cost efficient option. No one believes the IDF goes out to murder civilians, not even Hamas.
You want proof?
Why do Palestinian terrorist organizations hide amongst civilian population centers (which, btw, is against the Geneva Conventions governing rules of war)?
You cannot set up bomb and rocket factories next door to uncle Saeed and his 12 children.
They do it precisely to protect their assets by playing on Israel’s desire to avoid civilian casualties.
Having to go into a civilian area and pick out one well guarded combatant from thousands of civilians raises the costs for an IDF operation, which is precisely what Hamas is counting on. They are leveraging the safety of their people for their personal operational security.
Posted by Anonymous | July 31, 2008, 4:34 pmMohammad, you never had a problem justifying the targeting of Jewish civilians with indiscriminate acts of murder. In fact, you consider this legitimate.
Just for clarification, so you believe Palestinian civilians should not have to endure such brutality?
You believe such suffering should be confined to the Jews, right?
Posted by Anonymous | July 31, 2008, 4:38 pmMost SANE people do not take their kids to demos where the other side has fucking guns.
Posted by Doodad | August 1, 2008, 3:05 pm“It’s very easy for an Israeli sniper to shoot Palestinians on purpose. The fact that it doesn’t happen, except in combat situations or “fog of war” accidents should tell you something.”
Israel snipers do shoot kids on purpose, in fact, their orders allow them to shoot any child above the age of 12, even though international law recognizes anyone under 18 as a child. A disproportionate number of Palestinian kids who have been shot were shot in the head or neck. This cannot be the result of random, accidental fire or ricochets, but can only be the result of snipers or soldiers taking careful aim. In an interview with an Israeli sniper by Israeli journalist Amira Hass, the sniper ackmowledged that if many kids are getting hit in the head, this is the work of snipers. Additonally, over 140 Palestinian kids were hit in the eye with rubber bullets in just the first 3 months of the second Intifada. Again, this is not a result you would expect from random gunfire, but from carefully aimed shots. Furthermore, of the 6,000 children “accidentally” shot during the Al-Aqsa Intifada, over 2,000 were shot on the way to school, hardly a “combat” situation. Attacks against Palestinian schoolkids by settlers are common, so much so that they are often escorted by international observers to deter attacks. But these observors have themselves been attacked and savagely beaten by setllers while the Israeli army and police all too typically look on and do nothing.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/7/30/102911/586
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/hass.html
From Larence of Cyberia:
“The Swedish “Save the Children” organization estimated that “23,600 to 29,900 children required medical treatment for their beating injuries in the first two years of the [first] intifida, with nearly one third sustaining broken bones. Nearly one third of the beaten children were aged ten and under. It also states that 6,500 to 8,000 children were wounded by gunfire during the first two years of the Intifada. Researchers investigated 66 of the 106 recorded cases of “child gunshot deaths.” They concluded that: almost all of them “were hit by directed—not random or ricochet—gunfire ; nearly twenty percent suffered multiple gunshot wounds; twelve percent were shot from behind; fifteen percent of the children were ten years of age or younger; “most children were not participating in a stone throwing demonstration when shot dead ;” and “nearly one “fifth of the children were shot dead while at home or within ten meters of their homes.”
http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2008/05/liberal-israeli.html
Are you now going to argue that *30,000* Palestinian kids were beaten by the Israelis by accident, many of them so savagely that a third of them suffered broken bones? What kind of a mind does it take to rationalize the deliberate shooting and savage beating of children? I can see someone supporting the state of Israel, but I cannot see anyone with any trace of morality, ethics or human conscience supporting horrific crimes against children like this. Within our culture, those who harm children are considered the lowest of the low. When you lie to deflect blame or to deny the reality of crimes like this, you are in fact justifying them. Regardless of whatever crimes the Palestinians have committed in their struggle for independence, these crimes stand alone and demand the condemnation of civilized people.
“The Palestinian National Authority is the legitimate, elected and sole internationally recognized representative of the Palestinian people. If it wishes to choose war with Israel, it is free to do so, as it has in the past.”
Actually, Hamas is the legitimately elected representative of the Palestinian people, and there are many who would regard the PNA under Abbas as exactly the kind of Quisling government I mentioned before.
“Palestinians acting outside the authority of the PNA are illegal combatants under the rules of war. They are not “resisting occupation”; they are violating international agreements signed by their national leadership. This can be demonstrated by the condemnation of terror attacks against Israel by the PNA. Terror groups are combatants, and can thus be dealt with as combatants under international law. They have no legal right to engage in violence.”
The appointment of a Quisling government does not rob an occupied people of the right to resist that occupation. So long as they are not targeting civilians, using disproportionate force or violating the rules of war, any armed resistance by Palestinians is legtimate. There has been no specific UN resolution or any other action under international law prohibitting the Palestinians from resisting the occupation. There have been resolutions that clearly define the occuipation as illegal and call on Israel to withdraw from the West Bank.
“Yes, self determination is precisely what is at stake, but not for the Palestinians. The world has bent itself backwards to accommodate the self-determination of the Palestinians.”
How deluded do you have to be to believe something like this? The world has done little to promote Palestinian sovereignty other than drafting a handful or unenforceable UN resolutions. The US by contrast has given billions in aid and free weaponry to Israel.
“It is the self-determination of the Jewish people that was and is at stake, and the refusal of Palestinians to accept a Jewish state on Jewish land.”
Just keep repeating this lie enough times, and perhaps it will become the truth. Both Fatah and Hamas have openly stated they are willing to recognize the existence of a Jewish state on the territory that was stolen from the Palestinians prior to 1967 either as is or in exchange for recognition of a fully indepedent Palestinian state. Israel has one of the most powerful armies in the world, nuclear weapons, and the mindless, unquestioned support of the US and its military. The idea that some kids with rocks resisiting the theft of their land consitutes a threat to Israel’s self-determnination is mental derangement of the “I think I’m Napoleon” variety.
“Jewish defensive military actions have allowed the State of Israel to grow, if nothing else than for the sake of securing its people from relentless Arab assault through a minimal of strategic depth; this is not illegal. Every nation in the world has gained and lost territory in war.”
Again, more bullshit. International law does not recognize the right to territorial acquisition through war. Not a supposedly defensive war, nor wars of aggression such as those fought by Israel to obtain more territory. The fact that some nations have waged war to gain territory in the past does not mean it is permissible today. In fact, the UN Charter and much of modern international human rights law was drafted in response to Nazi aggression and atrocities in WWII, in an attempt to prevent such crimes from occurring again. The fact that Israel is determined to emulate the Nazis in so many ways doesn’t make their actions legal.
“Palestinians expect to be allowed to attack Jewish population centers, indiscriminately, as they have been doing since before 1929, and avoid retribution.”
No Palestinian expects that. Israel, on the other hand, expects that is can murder civilians and steal territory and then demands that the world recognize these actions and legal, which no nation, not even the US, has done.
“The Jewish people have been subject to war crimes at the hands of Palestinian mobs, raiders, murderers, and terrorists for nearly a century now.”
Murdering Palestinian kids using and military force to annex territory are also a war crimes, and every war crime the Israelis suffered has been the result of their attempts to steal Palestinian land. The Jews were usually treated with dignity and respect in Muslim lands prior to the advent of Zionism and indeed dominated trade in commerce under the Ottomans. An
y violence you have suffered since then has been the result of your own barbarism, brutality and greed.
“The only way to accept the Palestinian viewpoint is by denying the context of vicious Arab hostility to and violence against the Jewish residents of the State of Israel since before its founding.”
You seem blissfully unaware of the terrorist attacks and atrocities commited by the Jews prior to, during, and after the founding of the state of Israel.
“Palestinian self-determination is supported by all sides, including the Israelis, except the Palestinians themselves, who have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, and all for the sake of war, violence and spilled blood.”
What bollocks. Israel has never given the Palestinians an offer than any sane person would regard as respective of their right to sovereignty and self-determination. A bunch of Bantustans seperated by israeli military checkpoints and surrounded by Israeli bases? I don’t think so. Israel has no right under international law to dicate to the Palestinians “an offer they can’t refuse.” The only offer Israel should be making is to set a date for the full withdrawal of their illegal settlers and child-killing army from the West Bank. Everything else is bullshit.
“You, Sean, know nothing about this conflict. Stick to protecting Chavez and making a hero out of Castro.”
Don’t be so ungrateful to the commies, there Sara. Without your boy Stalin and his strongarming of the UN into recognizing the state of Israel or his murderous Jewish commisar Levrentiy Beria pressuring the Czechs to ship arms to the Jews in violation of the embargo on both sides, we might not be having this discussion.
Posted by Anonymous | August 1, 2008, 6:02 pm“Most SANE people do not take their kids to demos where the other side has fucking guns.”
Most sane people don’t take guns and use them in a demonstration where there are kids. They also don’t take guns to schools and playgrounds and people’s homes and start shooting at the kids there. Blaming the people who get shot for being in the vicinity of men with guns rather than blaming the men with guns for doing the shooting is an especially perverse variety of victim-blaming.
Posted by Sean | August 1, 2008, 6:06 pm