A copy of the best map used by Palestinian negotiators.
Sam, a KF reader, submitted a constructive comment in response to a recent post about the use or unuse of maps by Palestinian negotiators trying to trade “peace for land” with the Israelis (ironically, Palestinians lost both in the end).
KFers wrote that the Palestinian team did not have maps. Sam argues they had them available, based on his research, but whether they used them is another question. He also makes the point that this is indicative of the negotiating team’s failure to tap our national resources, or people power and intellect.
In the spirit of exchange…
Dear KABOBfestI really enjoy the blog but wanted to reach out after reading Mohammad’s
post (“Incompetence in the Face of Oppression“). I also posted this as a comment, so please pass this information on to QuiQui and the others.From what I can tell, the statement from QuiQui’s professor was based on a comment by Edward Said (likely in Peace and Its Discontents) that Arafat signed Oslo without looking at a map. Excusing Said’s penchant for hyperbole when discussing Arafat post-Oslo, the PLO-and Arafat in particular-not referencing a map is different from the PLO “not having a map.” The Palestinian negotiating team at Madrid (which was of course sidelined and undermined by the signing of Oslo) had maps that they referred to including those of settlement growth since 1967 and other demographic information. One of the cartographers for this effort was Khalil Tufakji who worked for Feisal Husseini in the Orient House in Jerusalem. He is well quoted in the main stream Western and Middle East press and has published articles in numerous places.
After Oslo was signed, the PA/PLO team used some of these maps and other supporting information from the Madrid group in the follow-up negotiations to implement Oslo and then Oslo II (the West Bank “withdrawal”) again from Tufakji and the Orient House. Whether Arafat and the others chose to use the maps or not is a different story.
My understanding is that in the lead up to Oslo II the final sticking points of the negotiations were inevitably resolved by Arafat and Peres (after Rabin was assassinated) in one-on-one negotiations. So it is not correct to say they didn’t have maps, they absolutely did – but again choosing to use the maps and how they
are used is a different matter.Moreover, in reference to Diana’s point, if the only maps that were used during the initial negotiations were Israeli maps that the Palestinian team got only a glancing look at and were written in Hebrew, the issue is not the “illegality” of the Palestinian team being in possession of maps of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem but the wisdom of the Palestinian leadership to engage in such a process.
Moreover, considering the number of Palestinians who speak and read Hebrew fluently, why one would not be part of the negotiating team again reveals that this is not
an issue of lack of competent resources, but the incompetent application of available resources to what is arguably the single most important series of negotiations for the Palestinian national movement. Sadly, the issue of maps as part of the Oslo negotiations, is but one of many where the Palestinian leadership ignored or neglected the human and material resources that could be leveraged from the broader Palestinian professional and academic community and chose to rely on the instincts of Arafat and his cronies and the good graces of the U.S. and Israeli negotiating teams. The results are self-evident.Keep up the good work, Kabobfest is an enjoyable read.
Related posts:
- Incompetence in the face of oppression
- How to Lie With Maps
- New Palestinian Liberation Strategy
- Israel Grounds Palestinian Football Team Again
- No Arabs, No Goals!
What a huge difference from Diana’s ill-informed tune – “The longer answer is that all maps were ‘security classified’ information by the Israelis that was not allowed to be in the possession of anyone other than security officials. Possession of a map (by a Palestinian) was a criminal offence”
What an indicative example of how one can take a conspiracy and run with it into paranoia-ville
Posted by steven | September 22, 2008, 8:53 pmOur greatest teacher is Love:
and our best map is Experience.
Posted by MooPig_Wisdom | September 22, 2008, 10:16 pmKabobers are idiots. Every Palestinian (except the ones here, apparently) knows how important maps are. Everyone has a map in palestine. You are makng it seem like Palestinians don’t know what maps are. How do you idiots think the village boundaries are established? How do you resolve where your olive trees and end your neighbor’s olive trees begin? A bunch of morons, seriously.
The point was before Oslo the Isreali and Palestinians were using the same Ottomon maps of every village and landmark. After Oslo the Israelis made their own maps of what were villages, agricultural land and what were military zones. Then when Palestinians tried to build new buildings they would apply for permit to Israelis and get rejected without explanation, because on Israeli maps this was a closed military zone even though on Palestinian map it was still inside the recognized village boundaries.
Honestly with all the fucking idiots you guys have here… it’s embarassing. Are any of you actually palestinians? Did any of you actually grow up there? Have any of you picked a single olive in your pampered lives? embarassing
Posted by Qusay | September 23, 2008, 12:06 amhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DmYLrxR0Y8
Listening to this as I go through Morning events… “Daddy, turn it Down !!”
I kinda like to be President
So I can show how you your money’s spent…
I know you workin for the CIA
They wouldn’t have ya’ in the MAFIA !!
WCWBFwww = Why can’t we be friends… whoo whoo whooooo….
Potatos? Olives? Let’s do Lunch!!
Posted by MooPig_Wisdom | September 23, 2008, 5:37 amYou know Qusay, I’ve never had to defend my ‘Palestinianess’ before in my life. Somehow though you seem to have read something we wrote and completely changed the meaning around, then charged through these comments insulting us.
I’m only dignifying what you wrote with a response because you seem very passionate about Palestine, a trait we share.
For your information, I do live in Palestine. I was born in a refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. Yeah I have picked olives before in my life. I try to help out when I hear people I know picking their olives, because my family’s olives are on land confiscated by Israel for a settlement.
Funny you ask if I’ve ever been to a checkpoint. I have not been able to leave Ramallah for almost three years now because of them. If you’ve ever visited Palestine, then you would have had more freedom of movement than I.
Had you actually bothered to read between the lines, you would have realized that we were criticizing the PLO for doing such a terrible job and NEGLECTING the importance of maps. If reading between the lines is too difficult for you, then you should have read my other posts before attacking me; my disdain and resentment towards the PLO and PA is well documented and clear.
Finally, a word of note. There are many, many people around the world extremely dedicated to the Palestinian cause who are not Palestinian. Implying that only ‘real Palestinians’ can take part in this struggle is stupid and offensive.
Now, if you have something constructive to say, then please do so. We have no problem with real criticism, but that is different from insulting us based on unfounded assumptions-especially when a casual read of what we write nullifies a lot of what you’re throwing at us.
Posted by Mohammad | September 23, 2008, 7:25 amMohammad,
Ignore these provocations. Clearly, there are Zionuts posing as Palestinians. I think this is a fair point.
I think the maps debate is reconcilable since Diana’s first-hand experience — which no one in the comments section can compare too — is that the official negotiation maps with the concrete details in various proposals were kept to one side.
My understanding is not that the Palestinians did not have maps, they did not have access to THE maps — the ones that were the subject of negotiations.
Maps, as Benedict Anderson wrote, anticipated reality. They’re a model, in a sense, and it’s clear Israel dictated that model, along with the rest of the process.
Sam, Mohammad, Diana, is this wrong?
Will
Posted by Will | September 23, 2008, 7:46 am“”
Ignore these provocations. Clearly, there are Zionuts posing as Palestinians. I think this is a fair point.”"
Paranoia isn’t very becoming, any moreso than when the Little Green Footballs crowd thinks anyone inconvenient in their debates is an “Islamist in disguise”. I take everyone here at their word about their origins unless I have a very good reason not to, and that seems the best approach to go for constructive debate.
Posted by Joe | September 23, 2008, 12:37 pmSorry to slightly change the subject, but the term clueless identifies worldview from the top down, about Palestinian situations.
RE: Joe: “…Paranoia isn’t very becoming, any moreso than when the Little Green Footballs crowd thinks anyone inconvenient in their debates is an “Islamist in disguise”…
This Just keeps getting Better and Better… Jeeez –
[SOURCE:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7632750.stm (BBC World; 09.24.2008)
“Analysts say Republicans want to bolster Sarah Palin’s foreign policy credentials ahead of a debate with her Democratic counterpart Joe Biden.”
‘Right questions’
“Mrs Palin, the running-mate to presidential candidate John McCain, held brief meetings with Afghan President Hamid Karzai and Colombian President Alvaro Uribe.”
“Mr Karzai and Mrs Palin discussed security problems in Afghanistan, including cross-border insurgencies.”
“Mr Karzai later said; ‘She had asked the right questions on Afghanistan.’”
- – - – - – - – - – - – -
So what’s next: What’s it like to interview with an All American Premier Hockey Mom?
“So, are you rooting for the Palestine Palikar’s, or the Israel Zionuts, Mrs Palin?”
Posted by MooPig_Wisdom | September 24, 2008, 5:54 am