No big deal…
When Turkish PM Tayyip Erdogan walked away from a WEF session on Gaza, he did so angrily but calmly – he did not “storm” off the stage as we keep reading in the press. While he was understandably offended by the Israeli president, he kept his composure. He finally left because the moderator would not allow him to speak. He explained himself later at a press conference with the WEF president before leaving Davos, possibly for the last time. At the end of the day, it was more about Turkish pride than anything else.
In part, Erdogan had been trying to push for international recognition of Hamas and his argument was solid. Flustered, Peres started acting like a barbarian and he needed to be put in his place (I don’t understand why anyone would consider the guy to be a ‘moderate’ – whatever that means). Nevertheless, Erdogan’s reaction was more rooted in pride than opposition. Like many commenters on Will’s post, I think this incident has been blown somewhat out of proportion; the same could have happened if the panel was centered around Iraq and the PKK, or anything else.
Still Erdogan received a hero’s welcome back in Istanbul. Thousands had been waiting over an hour for the prime minister’s plane to land, many of them waving Palestinian and Turkish flags. It was quite a sight… one reminiscent of the massive protests the country witnessed during Israel’s war on Gaza, probably the world’s largest. In another press conference, he reaffirmed the reason for his behavior saying “The issue is not personal. It is about my country’s reputation and dignity. I cannot allow anybody to harm my country’s dignity and honor.”
While Erdogan’s actions and the popular reaction they elicited were indeed welcome, his supporters would be wrong to get their hopes up. AKP officials have been critical of Israeli brutality in the past, but Turkey has had a close alliance with the Zionist state for a long time now. Popular support for Palestine notwithstanding, the status quo is unlikely to change. In fact, Turkey is expected to buy its first attack drones from Israel in the coming weeks.
If Erdogan wants to put his money where his mouth is, he’ll announce that he won’t spend it on funding Israeli terror and occupation. That’s probably wishful thinking, but the people of Turkey deserve more than rhetoric and purpose-driven theatrics? Erdogan did the right thing by walking away from an unbalanced platform, but he needs to keep marching down that same path if his actions are to have any real significance. In fact he needs to start engaging in effective political opposition to Israel.
Unfortunately, things are unlikely to change. Anxious to maintain close relations, Peres called Erdogan to apologize. Turkish leaders will continue to play politics as they have for the past several years – they are no different than ‘moderate’ Arab regimes who put aside the will of the people. What happened in Davos was nice, but it was insignificant in the greater scheme of things. Words without works is not enough.
(Still, I take my hat off to Tayyip Erdogan for doing the right thing then and there.)
I certainly sympathize with your desire to see Turkey take some bigger steps against Israel, as do many of us here in Turkey.
However, when it comes to military deals, the government has basically no say on the issue. In this country, the military is extremely powerful and has overthrown many governments that fell out of its good graces. If the military wants to keep deals with Israel, they will keep deals with Israel.
As for diplomatic relations with Israel, this too is a rather complicated issue. The government largely derives its legitimacy from its move to get the country into the EU. Severing ties with Israel would be seen as a sign of the government’s “Islamism” and as an attempt to “move Turkey toward Iran.” It would be very damaging. This may sound self-serving on the government’s behalf, but they are reasonably thinking about the long term. If they cut off relations with Israel and fail to get re-elected (or get overthrown by the military for being “Islamist”) the ties can be fixed by the next government. If, however, they stay close to Israel, they can use their clout to push for change.
good post.
I am not waiting for Turkey to do us our bid. they can keep their relations with israel as far as they want.
however the major difference between Turkey and the so-called moderate arab states. that turkey actually tries to atleast to put a “fair” distance between israelis and palestinians. that cannot be said about the other “moderate” states.
and shame on those who clapped for Peres, they clapped in defense of killing innocent women and children. thats exactly what they clapped…it was about time someone pointed that out.
anyway, I agree, it was nothing but a nice gesture of him and we thank him for it. no need to take it further
Turkey-Israel relations go back 60 years, way before the EU was an issue. If anything makes them split for good it’ll probably be the Kurdish issue, not that I would expect Israel would stop giving them the arms to kill Kurds, just like I don’t expect any change in their/the ADL’s engaging in genocide denial.
That said Erdogan does represent some change in rigid ethnic politics and in the context of history of Turkish nationalism any change is a good thing. An end of arms trade does not necessitate a total break of relations with Israel.
In other news the AU condemned Israel yesterday.
That Turkey will never drastically change its policy towards Israel is an accepted fact, this is a classic case of realpolitik and Turkey is doing what it perceives to be in its best interests as a nation-state. Still, while what Erdogen did won’t have any major political consequences, it was wonderful to see a leader actually outraged over what happened in Gaza, theatrical or not, it was deeply appreciated. Maybe that’s why Aljazeera made such a big deal about it.
Kalash why are you so defensive?
“In part, Erdogan had been trying to push for international recognition of Hamas”
Let’s say for the sake of argument that Israel doesn’t really care to negotiate; that Israel, on the whole, would rather keep all of Jerusalem and the West Bank than end the minor inconvenience that the occupation poses.
If this were so, it wouldn’t matter if Hamas were recognized. Even if Hamas ended all violent rhetoric/actions tomorrow, Hamas’ history would be all the excuse that Israel would ever need to keep from negotiations permanently. Further if one realizes that it is insanity to invade a nuclear country and that Israel could permanently afford the occupation with or without Washington’s aid, one would realize that negotiation is the only path to peace. If all of this is accepted as true, then Hamas cannot possibly do anything but fail.
Erdogan’s brief mention of Hamas in the talk didn’t help at all, I wish he hadn’t. Israel’s disrespect of democracy is irrelevant an issue while it carries out massacres.
And the arms deal isn’t going to stop. He can’t go that far. I agree with James on what the reaction of the EU would be. Even the military’s (who unfortunately still thinks it has to have a say here)response to Davos was that ‘national interests should be given priority’.
While he was understandably offended by the Israeli president, he kept his composure.
Understandably? He’s the President of TURKEY, right? Has he forgotten that? If everyone who is “understandably offended” by Turkey’s past and present actions stormed off from meetings with Turkish politicians, who would be left?
Mind boggling how some of the most disreputable characters on the planet posture as if they have moral objections to something Israel has done.
He stormed off because of the moderator, who didn’t give him the time to respond to Peres talk of his ‘love for Gaza’. He said ‘Davos was over’ because the moderator allowed Peres to rant (at the top of his lungs) for 25 minutes while he and the rest was given only 12.
First, I counted, Peres spoke for exactly 22 minutes. He began speaking after minute 40 of the discussion. That’s 5 minutes for the moderator, and 35 minutes, divided between three speakers who attacked Israel from every angle and at every opportunity.
After 35 minutes of non-stop attacks on Israel by three different speakers – during which Peres sat like a diplomat, instead of interrupting or walking off the stage – followed by 20 minutes of (quite frankly) one of the best public impromptu speeches I have seen performed in a very long time.
Peres was pure dynamite. In 20 minutes, he presented Israel’s case as the global media never never has. Fifteen minutes into his speech, he had complete dominance of that hall.
Erdogan was left to babble like a schoolgirl, because that’s all he is – a schoolgirl. The Turks should be ashamed of a leader who can’t keep his composure in a civil debate. This was something the likes of Chavez would pull – a stunt, nothing more.
I’m not going to reply to the above. Everyone watch it (its on youtube) and judge for yourself.
Yes, PLEASE watch. Peres blew me away. I thought he was an old fart. The guy can speak.
The hand wringing in Turkey and Israel continues.
I must admit I did not consider the European reaction to this. The Turks have spent five decades trying to convince the French, Germans and Brits that they are a “normal” country, Muslim but secular, adhering to universal European values.
The hypocritical and largely baseless criticism of Israel and seeming support for radical Islamist fundamentalism (in the form of Hamas, which after all, is a proxy of Iran) will give the skeptics (such as France) the perfect pretense to deny Turkey closer EU ties for a generation.
When evaluating Erdogan, from the standpoint of a Turkish citizen, one must see what exactly was accomplished in the Turkish national interest – a few seconds of anger on the world stage by a leader who couldn’t keep his cool, and cascading dominoes of strategic relationships soured, with Israel, with Europe, with America.
It’s a shame.
I guess someone is more pro- Hamas than Erdogan
See what Tony Blair says
Blair is coordinating with Israel and Obama. They are trying to split Hamas Gaza from Hamas Syria. Right now there is talk about a big split growing between them.
Hamas Gaza is pissed off that Mashaal in Syria refused to extend the truce. They were telling him that they are not ready for a war with Israel but he ordered the Qassam teams to fire on Israel.
Right now many in Hamas Gaza are talking about an indefinite truce with Israel (multi-year), but the Syrian wing wants no more than one year and then more violence.
Israel and the West will try to put a wedge between them by offering the Gaza wing more recognition, as long as it accepts the same conditions as before. The only difference is now those conditions will be rephrased in a less hostile way.
As someone living in the EU, Turks need to understand that most Europeans have already made their mind up as to whether they want Turkey in the EU or not. Trying overtly to be secular (such as banning head scarves in Universities) is not going to make a difference and can in a lot of cases, put people off (seeing as it is denying women the freedom to put on a headscarf). Real steps would be to constrain the power of the army and to tone down the nationalist rhetoric in the constitution and to be more reconciliatory towards the Kurds, Cypriots and Armenians, which at the moment, Erdogan is doing quite well in comparison to his predecessors.
As to his comments about the Gaza-Israel conflict, I applaud him. At least one leader had the guts to say something (whether he meant it or is willing to do something about it, is a different question). If I was him, I would have been a lot more frustrated, especially seeing as he almost clinched a peace deal between Israel and Syria, which is now dead in the water.
How is it dead in the water? What has changed between Syrian and Israel in the last year? Assad doesn’t give a shit about the Palis. He’ll start negotiating as soon as an Israeli prime minister is elected.
And we, the Jews, are keeping the Golan, bitches.
I was only repeating what many diplomats and independent commentators have been saying. Assad certainly isn’t at the negotiating table at the moment.
I’m glad you’ve made this into a religious issue and made sure your not willing to compromise even a little – What’s the difference again between people like you and Hamas?
What’s the difference again between people like you and Hamas?
Terrorism? Just guessing!
Terrorism? hmm.
From enforcing collective punishment on a population largely unable to defend itself, to physically attacking leftist Israelis that protest the war, to settlers in the West Bank attacking innocent Palestinians with rocks, sticks, guns.
Naah, I don’t this that’s it.
Israel is keeping Golan. We have peace with Syria now. They are scared of us, so they are peaceful. What will giving them Golan change? Absolutely nothing. What happened the last time they had Golan? They attacked us, three times.
Supposedly there is a blockade of Gaza, starvation in Gaza, open air prison in Gaza, complete poverty in Gaza…
but someone forgot to tell these people
To Anonymous 7.00,
You obviously don’t understand the importance of Israel gaining legitimacy in Arab eyes. Syria having diplomatic and economic links with Israel would be a major coup for them and a major blow to Iranian ambitions in the region. For Israel to get this, it needs to give back the Golan Heights, it’s as simple as that.
And assuming that you’re the same Anonymous of the next post – Would a picture of a shop in the Borrowdale Brooke suburb of Harare, be an indication of the lives of all Zimbabweans? The shops in that particular suburb are packed full of nice foreign goods that have been smuggled in one way or another letting Mugabe and co live in their own bubble of luxury, while the rest of his country slowly starves to death – trust me, I’ve been to both his bubble and the real Zimbabwe. The same goes to Gaza – You attempting to suggest that Gazans were not affected by the siege or that there was no siege is idiotic and frankly, disgusting.
I completely reject your reasoning. Israel doesn’t need a propaganda “coup” or a diplomatic “coup”. In fact Israel needs very little from Syria.
It is Syria who has needs – becoming a normal country that is not a pariah, breaking out of economic blockade and developing trade links with the West, cooperating with Israel on pacifying Lebanon. Maintaining the regime at home.
Israel needs nothing. Hezbollah is contained and deterred, as was recently proven, and if more deterrence is necessary, it will be provided.
Syria is contained and deterred, and should Assad decide otherwise Israeli jets will bomb his little pet WMD projects as many times as necessary.
As for Iran, let America and the Arabs deal with Iran. Why must Israel solve every problem in the region?
The Golan is a vital and permanent region of Israel. To even initiate negotiations on their return is unthinkable and illogical, on strategic, diplomatic and security considerations.
You obviously have heard of ‘gaining legitimacy in the eyes of the Arab people’, you know, your neighbours. Israel is a pariah state in the eyes of people around the world. It is unable to make peace with its neigbours and constantly resorts to ‘bully’ tactics. You need a peace deal with Syria to show people around the world that they’re mistaken.
And as far as I know, there isn’t an economic blockade of Syria – us Europeans are happy enough to trade with them.
As for your comment about Iran, your arrogance is astounding. Israel is part of the problem, like it is part of nearly all the problems in the Middle-East. Israel is the reason why Iran, Syria, Hizbollah and Hamas are all allies.
As for your last sentence, nearly all Israeli politicians disagree, as well as the US, all of whom concede that the return of the Golan Heights will have to be part of any future peace deal.
gaining legitimacy in the eyes of the Arab people
You have everything backwards. The Arabs are the ones who need to gain legitimacy from Jews. The Jews have all the legitimacy they need after 60 years of destroying Arab armies.
unable to make peace with its neigbours
Egypt and Jordan are not neighbors? Name one nation-state that has challenged Israeli sovereignty in 40 years.
You need a peace deal with Syria to show people around the world that they’re mistaken.
You want us to sacrifice security for the sake of perception among some misguided individuals? Again, this serves no credible purpose. If Jews start trying to appease any fantastical delusions of their enemies, we’ll be shooting ourselves in the head tomorrow as a compromise measure. Thanks but no thanks.
And as far as I know, there isn’t an economic blockade of Syria
It shows how little you known. The US has imposed a comprehensive sanctions regime on Syria, which has been supported and enforced by many Arab states. The Europeans trade with Iran too, so what? If America refuses to trade with you, things start going downhill. Syria has a collapsed, 1970s style economy. The Syrian regime is only able to maintain control on the basis of force and violence.
Israel is part of the problem, like it is part of nearly all the problems in the Middle-East.
Yes, 5 million Jews, tucked away in their corner of the Mediterranean have completely destabilized 300 million Arabs. Give me a break.
I can just as well say that Islam is “part of the problem, like it is part of nearly all the problems in the Middle-East.”
Or, Syria is “part of the problem, like it is part of nearly all the problems in the Middle-East.”
Or, Iran is “part of the problem, like it is part of nearly all the problems in the Middle-East.”
Israel is the reason why Iran, Syria, Hizbollah and Hamas are all allies.
That’s oversimplified nonsense. Iran developed proxies not to fight the Jews, but to undermine Sunni Arab regimes and develop leverage over the Americans in the region.
nearly all Israeli politicians disagree, as well as the US
Actually, they don’t. It has been a policy of the Israeli government since ’67 to annex the Golan. The Israeli public is overwhelmingly in favor of this. As for the US, they have no interest one way or another. The US wants Syria, a base and training ground for every terrorist group in the Middle East, contained. Once American negotiations with Iran commence, Syria will be thrown to the wolves. It is not at all certain that Assad will survive a US-Iranian partnership.
Israel must do nothing. It is in the Syrian interest to seek peace and make concessions, as the weaker party. The Golan are indivisible from Israel.
You have everything backwards. The Arabs are the ones who need to gain legitimacy from Jews. The Jews have all the legitimacy they need after 60 years of destroying Arab armies.
You just don’t get it do you? Smashing armies does not gain legitimacy, it gains more hatred on the part of the Arabs. And if you’re unable to make peace with your neighbours (i.e. have real diplomatic and economic links) then people around the world see Israel as a pariah state. Israel has invaded countries and bombed countries and not the other way round.
Egypt and Jordan are not neighbors? Name one nation-state that has challenged Israeli sovereignty in 40 years.
Egypt, in return for Sinai and a ehole of aid from the US (notice the ‘in return’ bit) and Jordan in return for a whole load of aid (Jordan didn’t really give a crap about Israel anyway)
You want us to sacrifice security for the sake of perception among some misguided individuals? Again, this serves no credible purpose. If Jews start trying to appease any fantastical delusions of their enemies, we’ll be shooting ourselves in the head tomorrow as a compromise measure. Thanks but no thanks.
Sacrifice your security? give me a break. Like you said yourself, Israel’s sovereignty hasn’t been challenge in 20 years, you can no longer play the victim card. Fanatical delusions? Are you talking about the same Assad that I am?
It shows how little you known. The US has imposed a comprehensive sanctions regime on Syria, which has been supported and enforced by many Arab states. The Europeans trade with Iran too, so what? If America refuses to trade with you, things start going downhill. Syria has a collapsed, 1970s style economy. The Syrian regime is only able to maintain control on the basis of force and violence.
I don’t know whether you’ve realised this, but the US and a couple of Arab states not trading with a country will not destroy its economy. There is a world outside your little bubble you know. The Europeans don’t trade with Iran but the Europeans, Asians and Russians all trade with Syria, which keeps its economy running acceptably. I have friends in Syria, and they have no problem with the economy so I don’t know what planer you’re living on.
Yes, 5 million Jews, tucked away in their corner of the Mediterranean have completely destabilized 300 million Arabs. Give me a break.
Yes, believe it or not, Israel is part of the Palestinian problem and is one of the reasons, Syria, Iran, Hamas and Hizbullah all work together. Although their political views are diametrically opposed, they have a common enemy, Israel. There is US presence in the ME because of two reasons, the protection of Israel, and the maintenance of a constant supply of oil. Israel making peace and having economic and diplomatic links with Syria and all the Gulf States (which can be done by signing the Arab peace initiative), would isolate Iran, ensure your own peace and give more stability to the supply of oil. Everything is linked (even if you don’t want it to be) and your conflict with the Palestinians is at the centre of it.
Actually, they don’t. It has been a policy of the Israeli government since ’67 to annex the Golan. The Israeli public is overwhelmingly in favor of this. As for the US, they have no interest one way or another. The US wants Syria, a base and training ground for every terrorist group in the Middle East, contained. Once American negotiations with Iran commence, Syria will be thrown to the wolves. It is not at all certain that Assad will survive a US-Iranian partnership.
Yes they do. Even Netanyahu has privately conceded that he is willing to give back the Golan Heights. It is considered occupied territory under International Law and only Israel sees it as Israeli territory. Do you expect anyone to seriously believe that Syria is a terrorist haven, the same people that shelled a whole town killing 20,000 people after an Islamist uprising? Get real. It’s as unrealistic as the US and Iran making a deal. The US and Syria making a partnership is much more likely.
Israel must do nothing. It is in the Syrian interest to seek peace and make concessions, as the weaker party. The Golan are indivisible from Israel.
Yes it must. It is in Israeli interest to make peace with the Syrians, for the reasons I’ve stated. Syria can survive without making peace but the world (which sees the Golan Heights as Syrian territory) is losing patience and IF Israel resists giving back these territories, so will the US.
I think we’re having communication difficulties. As I’ve outlined above, your arguments are not persuasive, and are broken at their source. We can keep going around in circles like this. If there is something you don’t understand, I’ll be happy to explain it.
The Golan is a part of Israel, period.
Yeah I suppose we are going in circles but your last sentence is simply not true.
It is part of Israel ‘according to Israel and Israelis’ but it isn’t according to the rest of the world (which is what really matters)
Your entertainment value keeps giving and giving. If you think “the world” cares for who owns a patch of mountainous dirt, you’re more delusional than I suspected. The Golan is Israel, forever. Forever is an awfully long time. I suggest you hold your breath.
[sigh]
The world doesn’t give a damn about the mountains, but they do give a damn about the Middle East and its endless conflicts (of which the mountains are a part of). Israel and Syria will eventually have to make peace and it is extremely likely that Syria will get the Heights back as part of the deal, whether you like it or not.
Shafiq is right, and anonymous is wrong.
I support Israel holding the Golan *for now*, simply because I want whatever permanent peace deal Israel and Syria sign to actually *stick*, and that’ll only happen if neither side feels they got a ‘raw deal’. If Syria gets something tangible — they get the Golan back, perhaps with some sort of time provision, say, 10 years of peace with Syria and then the Golan is returned — the deal is more likely to stick.
Joe, you’re so cute when you try acting like a grown up. Keep trying.
Complete silence and complicity by Kabob for Hamas crimes. I overheard Will say, referring to the Gazans, “Resistance forever. And the people? Let them eat dirt”.
AzfSdI pswcdshrgmgq, [url=http://gindqywabowi.com/]gindqywabowi[/url], [link=http://nqheggiwqtkb.com/]nqheggiwqtkb[/link], http://zaaqwnysuspl.com/