I know this is ancient by the internet’s standards, but this video is very inspiring — and not just because the European game promotes passing and team dynamics.
Tel Aviv Maccabi team played in Barcelona earlier this month. The protests were prominent and part of the growing boycott Israel movement.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgLLIT2MbBE]
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- UPDATED: Shahar Peer and the Dubai visa denial
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- Palestine’s Football Team
Its ancient history and was already posted on this blog by someone else. Sorry, habibi.
Posted by Anonymous | February 25, 2009, 6:42 amInspiring? A bunch of losers interrupting a Basketball game because it involves Israeli players?
If that’s what you think is inspiring, then it’s no wonder the Palestinians have their priorities all out of whack.
Inspiring? Try sad.
Posted by Hoopsta | February 25, 2009, 6:54 amAre you kidding this is inspiring. If the governments of the world wont put Israel in check then the people have to do it.
Anyway, this was posted earlier on this blog Will.
Posted by Arayus | February 25, 2009, 9:34 amincredible.. seeing the flags all around made me cry.
Posted by dopesexyfuck | February 25, 2009, 9:54 am…then the people have to do it.
Who you trying to fool, fool? The “people” are nothing but a bunch of sheep. If the Spaniards had any balls they’d deport all those “protesters” back to wherever they came from. Spain has an unfortunate history of collapsing in the face of terrorism, so they need to take whatever preventative measures they can.
Posted by programmer craig | February 25, 2009, 2:03 pm“they need to take whatever preventative measures they can”
Yeah, because no one likes freedom of speech and expression. You mean a la Israel style and spray white phosporous at the crowd to inspire people to vote right wing in upcoming elections?
Posted by Anonymous | February 25, 2009, 7:06 pmYou Arab-Americans still want to turn back the clock 1400 years to the days of Arab rule in Spain?
Why else do you glorify the Moorish Algerian scumbag illegals in Spain who dance around a Barcelona b-ball court to advocate the slaughter of Israelis and Americans?
Does this help Arab-Americans advance their evil political agenda?
Posted by pat1425 | February 25, 2009, 7:08 pmYou Arab-Americans still want to turn back the clock 1400 years to the days of Arab rule in Spain?
Nah, 1400 years ago was the Inquisition in Spain. I doubt Arabs and Muslims would like it much if they were given a choice to leave, convert or die… enforced by a Catholic Church with unlimited power. Just a guess
Posted by programmer craig | February 25, 2009, 7:40 pmWho you trying to fool, fool? The “nuts” in my mouth are nothing but a bunched up skin. If the Spaniards had any balls, I’d suck them off to “protest” the fact that I hate Palestinians. Spainish people have an unfortunate history of collapsing in the face of large balls, so they need to take whatever mouth stretching measures they can.
Suck balls, kill Palestinians.
Posted by programmer craig | February 25, 2009, 8:33 pmNah, 1400 years ago was the Inquisition in Spain. I doubt You nor I would like it much if they we were not given the choice to suck balls. Besides, there weren’t any Zionuts in Spain at the time, so you and I would be unable to suck their balls, since they didn’t exist…Glad the IDF has unlimited power now. Just a thought
Posted by programmer craig | February 25, 2009, 8:34 pmKabob isn’t reporting videos like this. I wonder why. Remember when we heard about Hamas breaking legs of Fatah collaborators in Gaza? It’s all so neat and clean in black and white letters. Behind each pair of those broken legs is a human being.
Watch for yourself how acts the Palestinian government of Gaza.
Posted by Anonymous | February 25, 2009, 11:04 pmIf the governments of the world wont put Israel in check then the people have to do it.
Exactly. Westerners and Muslims alike have to make sure that Israel is isolated as the Nazi state it is.
If the Spaniards had any balls they’d deport all those “protesters” back to wherever they came from.
All those protesters are Catalans (not Spaniards). They are native.
Posted by Maju | February 26, 2009, 1:00 amSport should be a way of breaking down barriers. We don’t see Jews interrupting sporting occasions like this simply because Arabs are playing. What about all the ordinary people just there to see a game, the kids that must have been scared stiff?
In a recent post you pondered why the US finds it acceptable to hate Arabs. I suggest that protest handed them yet another very good reason.
Posted by xoggoth | February 26, 2009, 5:50 amTry putting yourself in the same position. You are watching a Chinese team with your family and a bunch of Tibet supporters starts acting like that. That would warm you to Tibetans would it?
The fact is that many others in the world, Chechens, Georgians, Tamils, Zimbabweans, Congolese etc face major conflicts but they do not appear to think it is their right to export their conflict to the rest of the world to the detriment of ordinary civilians. This does not win friends I assure you.
Posted by xoggoth | February 26, 2009, 6:16 amSport should be a way of breaking down barriers.
When you pul down the apartheid wall, when Palestinians are 100% integrated in a non-racist team, then you tell me about breaking down barriers. Play in West Asia anyhow: Israel is not any European country. What? Your neighbours don’t like you? Think on what did you do to them, murderers, invaders, nazis!
Posted by Maju | February 26, 2009, 9:26 amThe fact is that many others in the world, Chechens, Georgians, Tamils, Zimbabweans, Congolese etc face major conflicts but they do not appear to think it is their right to export their conflict to the rest of the world to the detriment of ordinary civilians. This does not win friends I assure you.
South Africa was totally banished from international sports until they put an end to apartheid. The same should happen to Israel.
It’s not about “making friends”. You are not making any friends with your mass murderous practices or your colonialist racism, Zionists. I is about justice and for the native people of Palestine to have 100% full rights in their homeland.
Posted by Maju | February 26, 2009, 9:29 amAll those protesters are Catalans (not Spaniards).Who cares? They are native.There are no such thing as "native" Spaniards. Just like there are no such thing as "native" French. Both regions have been conquered and settled by too many waves of outsiders to even count, going back into prehistory. Spain (and Spanish culture) came into existence in 1492, with the reconquista. That was when they threw off the Arabs and Muslims by force. Muslims were the only people who ever conquered Iberia that were so hated by the locals they went to that extent. What does that tell you? Anything?
Posted by programmer craig | February 26, 2009, 7:47 amSouth Africa was totally banished from international sports until they put an end to apartheid. The same should happen to Israel.
Bullshit. There’s no comparison whatsoever.
Posted by programmer craig | February 26, 2009, 11:49 amBallsack. There’s no comparison whatsoever between zionuts from europe and zionuts from arab countries. If you’ve ever sucked some, you’d know.
And I’m programmer head, I sucked a lot in my lifetime.
Posted by programmer craig | February 26, 2009, 12:57 pmWho cares?
Everybody.
There are no such thing as “native” Spaniards. Just like there are no such thing as “native” French. Both regions have been conquered and settled by too many waves of outsiders to even count, going back into prehistory.
Not the space to start a discussion on history, prehistory and genetics. I think you’re essentially wrong but, in any case, that you have no roots doesn’t mean that the rest also lack of them. Natives for this purpose is people whose ancestors have been majoritarily living in the area for centuries or milennia, are born and raised there.
Someone was bullshitting about them being foreigners and it’s clear that they are not.
Spain (and Spanish culture) came into existence in 1492
That’s a Spainish nationalist myth. In fact Spain was not unified politically, legally or culturally until the 18th century, after the war of Spanish succession (and the Basque provinces even later). The “Spanish” conquest of Granada, America, etc. was in fact all *Castilian* matters.
That was when they threw off the Arabs and Muslims by force.
Muslims and Jews. Though they were offered conversion and in many cases protected by the local authorities, Muslims and crypto-Muslims especially because they were the main workforce.
Muslims doesn’t mean Arabs. Most Andalusi Muslims were Iberian natives, some Berbers and very very few Arabs.
Muslims were the only people who ever conquered Iberia that were so hated by the locals they went to that extent. What does that tell you? Anything?
It tells me that you need to study more history. Before Muslims, Romans and Phoenicians (Canaanites) had conquered it, and also several Germanic tribes. And before all these the Celts (partly) and who knows (prehistory). The first more or less unified Iberia was by the hand of the Barcids (Phoenicians) in any case. Both Iberians and Celts fought with them loyally in most cases.
Muslim conquest of Iberia was recieved with apathy or even sympathy and continued that way for long. Only when the Almoravids and Almohads (more fundamentalist factions) intervened, curtailing religious tolerance and the cultural apogee of Al Andalus, people really resented it.
But Christian domination was not better for the most part: massive corruption and religious intolerance to begin with.
“South Africa was totally banished from international sports until they put an end to apartheid. The same should happen to Israel.”
Bullshit. There’s no comparison whatsoever.
There is ALL comparison. And, as I see you are slightly and shallowly interested in history, you may even recall who was best firend of Israel in the cold war. South Africa was crucial in the developement of the Zionist A-bomb, among other privileged relations.
In any case the situation is almost exactly the same: a colonial ethnic group displacing and opressing the natives and creating bantustans (falesely independent micro-states, fragmented and powerless reservations in fact) and different legal status to keep them out of the system. Racism and apartheid in the worst form. Only minor details may vary.
And I’m programmer head, I sucked a lot in my lifetime.
I never did. And I don’t repent. Suckers have no dignity nor can push humankind ahead.
It is not suckers who are raising outraged at the criminal behaviour of Nazi Israel and the incredible complicity of the so-called democracies of the World. It is people with empathy and dignity. People who don’t just shrug when children are burned alive and radiated with uranium.
Posted by Maju | February 27, 2009, 12:47 amMaju
“South Africa was totally banished from international sports until they put an end to apartheid”. Sorry but the Apartheid in South Africa was put it down by the blood and sweat of the cuban people, not because a boycot
Posted by Por Palestina | February 27, 2009, 11:50 amAt least they didn’t do what they did at the 1972 Olympics!!
It would’ve been funny if that happened at an NBA Game in America (suppose they had a Jewish player on the team or something) – those NBA boys like to run into the stands and brawl, remember the cup of beer incident?
Posted by Eagle | February 27, 2009, 2:31 pmSorry but the Apartheid in South Africa was put it down by the blood and sweat of the cuban people, not because a boycot
It was put down because it was untenable. Cuba may have helped all they could but more in things like assistance to Angola and other “front line countries”, who had their own big problems fueled by racist South Africa (this was particularly true in Mozambique, where the “guerrilla” were nothing but a huge death squad with no ideology but most criminal practices).
The international condemnation, boycott included, helped to force a democratic solution for South Africa in any case. Both SA and Israel apartheid regimes are fruit of a 19th/early 20th century colonialist racist mentality that nowadays is not accepted by nearly anyone (fortunately). Still Israel with the “pity me” Holocaust blah-blah have managed to get away from the most basic international principles, from human rights charter to conventions on war, slavery and genocide. Like if that was the fault of Palestinians, c’mon!
If people, particularly in the West but also in the Muslim World, just shrugs the daily genocide against Palestinians instead of raising up against it, western governments will keep doing whatever the Israel lobby wants, i.e. looking elsewhere or even financing the new Jewish-made holocaust. If people reacts angryly, if Israeli products and those of their collaborators (Nestlé, McDonalds, Disney, Danone, Coca-Cola, etc.) are boycotted, if McAbbi can’t play basketbal in Barcelona or anywhere… then a big step will have been made in the direction of supressing the Palestinian apartheid.
Of course the big moment will be when their accounts are embargoed and no more money flows to such a dependent micro-state as Israel. Then they will have to negotiate.
But while they are allowed to do what they want, including burning alive children, stealing land and water, massive ethnic cleansings, and proliferating nuclear weapons, they will do it. Zionists believe they have that “god-given” right to murder and steal and the World must stand against that atrocity and get them stopped.
We will make them surrender to democracy. It’s just a matter of time.
Posted by Maju | February 27, 2009, 6:10 pmZionists believed they were given an opportunity to have a Jewish homeland in Palestine, when the Ottoman Empire was dismembered after WW1. The Arabs were offered a nation in Palestine as well, but they had other ideas…
As independence was declared, Arab forces from Egypt, Syria, Transjordan (later Jordan), Lebanon, and Iraq invaded Israel.
Israel did not attack the Arabs, they were attacked BY the Arabs. The hostilities that accompanied the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 led to the flight of some 750,000 refugees from Palestine.
The Arabs continued to go to war with Israel and lose in the following decades.
Palestinian groups that support and carry out acts of political violence include Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah’s Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine – General Command, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Abu Nidal Organization.
Palestinian support for suicide bombers
After WW1 and before Israel was a state, there was Arab violence against Jews:
The 1920 Palestine riots, or Nebi Musa riots
Jaffa riots 1921
1929 Palestine riots
The Hebron Massacre
The 1929 Safed massacre
The 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine. The revolt did not achieve its goals, although it is “credited with signifying the birth of the Arab Palestinian identity.”
Posted by Q | February 28, 2009, 10:26 amIsrael did not attack the Arabs, they were attacked BY the Arabs.
False: Israel, supported by a wholly colinialist and Eurocentric pre-60s UN, was granted more than half of Palestine, when Jews were only 1/3 of the people (almost all recent immigrants arrived in the previous two years) and owned like 7% of the land.
That was an attack of Israel and the whole European world against “Arabs”, i.e. Palestinians.
You cannot obviate that most Jews are immigrants into Palesine (nowadays some are 2nd gen. immigrants but still without deep roots) and Palestinians are native and have been displaced and murdered by Zionists since 1948.
As some Palestinian said: I did not migrate to Israel, Israel came to me. Came and denied them any rights in their own homeland. That is imperialism, racism and fascism.
Stop selling edulcorated versions of history. We don’t believe them anymore: they are nothing but lies, the same lies that Goebbels promoted.
Zionists are the somewhat accidental offspring of Goebbels and Hitler. That’s it.
And the same we feel disgust and rejection for the Holocaust of the 1940s against Jews and others and wahtever indirect complicity our ancestors might have in it, we also feel nausea and outrage for the new holocaust perpetrated against Palestinians by the Zionists, and for whatever indirect complicity we might have with it.
And the same we would have risen against Nazism, the same we arose against Chetnik or genocide, we are arising against the Zionist genocide in the hope that justice and democracy will prevail.
Palestinians have the right to self defense. You can’t deny that to them. I don’t care if the Mossad-CIA says they are terrorists: they are freedom fighters and the only (or at last main) terrorists in Palestine are the Mossad and the IDF. You can only do such claims when apartheid is supressed and justice and democracy reign again in Palestine.
Make a goverment of national unity with Hamas, they represent more citizens in Palestine than Netanyahu does. If anyone can claim legitimacy nowadays is in all Palestine, they are Hamas.
I am not sympathetic of Islamism but that’s the truth. And they got their votes because they did not surrender like Abbas, who nowadays is nothing but a pathetic Zionist proconsul in a handful of towns.
Face it. Accept that Palestinians have the right to live and rule their own land, they are offering an open hand to Israelis to become Palestinians with full rights. And that’s the best you will ever get.
Israel is racist and therefore doomed.
Posted by Maju | February 28, 2009, 10:52 amIsrael did not attack the Arabs, they were attacked BY the Arabs.
False: Israel, supported by a wholly colinialist and Eurocentric pre-60s UN, was granted more than half of Palestine, when Jews were only 1/3 of the people (almost all recent immigrants arrived in the previous two years) and owned like 7% of the land.
Actually, not false. It is the way of propagandists to try to start redefining words, playing with semantics, and twisting the meaning of things.
There was no literal “attack” by Israel and the whole European world.
The land for Israel was bought and paid for, mostly by the Jewish National Fund.
Israel declared independence in 1948, and was then attacked BY Arabs. Fact.
Palestine was granted to Great Britain, via the British Mandate of Palestine, after WW1. Britain ruled Palestine in the years 1920-1948. That’s just the way it happened.
You cannot obviate that most Jews are immigrants into Palesine (nowadays some are 2nd gen. immigrants but still without deep roots) and Palestinians are native and have been displaced and murdered by Zionists since 1948.
What is the point? Yes, many Jews went to Palestine, and some were already there. By the way, the Arabs are not exactly native because the Arabs arrived as invaders when they conquered Palestine in 638 AD from the Byzantines.
Before that time, the Israelites had their kingdom in Palestine – in the 12th and 13th centuries B.C.
The last Jewish kingdom won control of the land from the Hellenistic Greeks during the Maccabean rebellion from 168 to 140 B.C. The state lasted until 63 B.C., when Pompey conquered Palestine for Rome. When the Jews revolted in A.D. 66, the Romans destroyed the Temple (A.D. 70). Another revolt between A.D. 132 and 135 was also suppressed (see Bar Kokba, Simon), Jericho and Bethlehem were destroyed, and the Jews were barred from Jerusalem.
Jerusalem was never the capital of any state but Israel.
There are even tunnels made by Jews discovered today that pre-date the Arabs.
And the same we feel disgust and rejection for the Holocaust of the 1940s against Jews and others and wahtever indirect complicity our ancestors might have in it…
…And the same we would have risen against Nazism
Actually the Arabs of Palestine did not rise against Nazism, but rather they joined them. The Arabs also sided with them in Iraq where they worked with German intelligence and accepted military assistance from Germany.
Palestinians have the right to self defense
Suicide bombs? Indiscriminate missiles? Random shootings? That is self defense?
If anyone can claim legitimacy nowadays is in all Palestine, they are Hamas
Look how even Hamas treats other Palestinians.
Hamas police ‘seize aid for Gaza’
Hamas government seizing hundreds of tonnes of food supplies.
It is true that the Palestinians need to “live and rule their own land” – they need to develop the political and social institutional framework that they need. They may see themselves, with much justification, as the victims of the Zionist movement’s successful establishment of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, but the reasons for their historical failure should be sought elsewhere: the failure to create the institutional system vital for their success.
The Palestinians are inclined to blame Israel, the Americans, the international community; but the real, essential responsibility ultimately lies with the Palestinians themselves.
Even now – elections were held, Hamas won, Fatah lost – and both groups have been unable to sustain a framework whose legitimacy is accepted by both sides. Fatah and Hamas, after all, are not just two parties operating within a democratic consensus: They are also armed militias, and their electoral strength is to a large extent rooted in their military power. All pan-Arabic attempts to unite them, such as the Mecca agreement brokered by Saudi Arabia last year, have failed in the face of this reality, which shows that ultimately power in Palestinian society grows (as Mao Tse-tung once said in a different context) out of the barrel of a gun.
Posted by Q | March 2, 2009, 12:28 pmThe fact that there is no model of an Arab democratic state to follow also does not help the Palestinians.
Posted by Q | March 2, 2009, 12:40 pmActually, not false. It is the way of propagandists to try to start redefining words, playing with semantics, and twisting the meaning of things.
That is exactly what Zionists have been doing all this time, since such colonialist form of ethnic racist nationalist was invented.
There was no literal “attack” by Israel and the whole European world.
There was an invasion by the Franco-British of Palestine and other West Asian territories, there was deceit and lies towards the Arabs, with promises of a unified Arab state and decret deals between London, Paris and the Zionists in a totally opposite direction. There was a colonial decission to deprive a population of their lands to give them to the Jewish would-be colonists. And there was financing and arming of the Zionist militias by the Western powers in the 1940s and after.
In 1920, Palestine was 100% Arab (the existent Jewish minority was Arab, as was and is the Christian one), even in 1946, after the Holocaust and the mass migration that it triggered, only some 30% of all people living in Palestine were Jewish, most of them just arrived. But the Western powers decided to give them more than half of the country. Would they have got the areas were they were majority, they would have obtained Tel Aviv and nothing else.
The land for Israel was bought and paid…
You cannot buy a nation, though guess believe you can. Property is not sovereignity. Property is in all countries second to other rights of people and the state.
Israel declared independence in 1948, and was then attacked BY Arabs. Fact.
LOL. Israel was an imposition against the will of the people. It would be like if Russian Latvians declare independence and claim more than half of Latvia, or like if French Arabs would declare independence and claim half of France.
A total nonsense.
Palestine was granted to Great Britain…
Imperialism and nothing else. Palestine was conquered by the British and allies and the British granted it to themselves and their Zionist nightmare.
What is the point? Yes, many Jews went to Palestine…
The point is that they are immigrants and normally immigrants do get the rights of the natives automatically. Instead for this particular case the colonial power decided to give them much more rights.
And that says it all. It’s a colonialist enterpise of the worst kind.
Before that time, the Israelites had their kingdom in Palestine – in the 12th and 13th centuries B.C.
And? *flippant*
1. That is ancient history. It’s like we Basques would claim Gascony or if the Greeks would claim Siracuse.
2. The Hebrews conquered that land from the natives, known as Canaanites, in a most brutal and murderous campaign in the name of Yaveh.
3. While probably both modern Jews and Palestinians can claim descent from the natives of ancient Palestine, the latter are surely more pure descendants if any and have been living in the country all this time.
Jerusalem was never the capital of any state but Israel.
It was the capital of the crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem. Fact.
Actually the Arabs of Palestine did not rise against Nazism, but rather they joined them. The Arabs also sided with them in Iraq
where they worked with German intelligence and accepted military assistance from Germany.
Not all did, only some. But anyhow, are you surprised? The British (was gonna spell “Brutish”, what a lapsus!) had deprived them of their dreams of independence and wanted to create a Jewish colony in their land. The Nazis were at war with the British and had clear anti-Jewish sentiments. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”.
Palestinians have the right to self defense
Suicide bombs? Indiscriminate missiles? Random shootings? That is self defense?
I think so. The damage they cause is in any case always much inferior to the damage the Israeli cause. There are no civilians in Israel: all are soldiers (except Arab-Israelis who are banned from the army and from nearly anything).
Look how even Hamas treats other Palestinians…
You’re pitting them against each other. And I know you’re laughing behind the keyboard.
But all that is obscured by the massacres comitted by Israel: white phsophorus, DIME and uranium depleted bombs (all them with long term effects on the population), gratuitous systematic shooting at civlians, mostly children, women and elderly, deprivation of water, food, health assistance, humanitarian aid, uprooting of olives, destruction of infrastructures, expropiation of lands, fragmentation of the land, enclosing behind walls, barbed wire and abusive checkpoints, unwarranted arrests, generalized torture, demolition of family homes, systematic colonization of the territory, expulsion of people, denial of self-government, etc.
There is not a single article of the International Declaration of Human Rights that Israel does not breach every single day.
It is true that the Palestinians need to “live and rule their own land” – they need to develop the political and social institutional framework that they need. They may see themselves, with much justification, as the victims of the Zionist movement’s successful establishment of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, but the reasons for their historical failure should be sought elsewhere: the failure to create the institutional system vital for their success.
That’s the most hypocritical statement I have ever read. How on earth can they develope any institutions if each time they do you bomb them. How can they manage they water, for instance, when it’s all under Israeli control and used to irrigate Zionist farms and colonies? C’mon! stop being hypocritical: they can’t do anything because Israel won’t allow them to.
Even now – elections were held, Hamas won, Fatah lost…
Why? Because, ater the likely murder of Arafat, a person who knew where his legitmacy laid on, Fatah became just a puppet of Israel. The murder of Rabin in Israel also destroyed the only possibility ever of an unjust yet realistic two state solution.
There’s no two state solution for Israel: they don’t want it. They want to keep the wound open untl they can either annihilate or expel all natives and get their land and water. Israel can’t exist without the West Bank and all literate Zionists know that well, so the process of colonization and fragmentation of this territory “must” go on. The only acceptable solution for Israel is a fragmented Palestinian “bantustan” that would serve only to keep Palestinians from being Israeli citizens/subjects, while grabbing all the rest and annexing it, first de facto, then de jure.
All pan-Arabic attempts to unite them, such as the Mecca agreement brokered by Saudi Arabia last year, have failed…
Fatah is off the game, they have lost all legitimacy by licking the Zionist boot too often and too well and they would not win any democratic election again – ever. Saudia is de facto pro-Israeli and has been financing this campaign against Gaza.
Saudia and Egypt have broken fascist regimes that would (and will) collapse in absence of massive foreign aid in the case of Egypt and oil money in the case of Saudia. Saudia (with US and Zionist connivence) has been the main promoter of Islamo-Fascism but is worried that some of its most pragmatic factions, such as Hamas.
The fact that there is no model of an Arab democratic state to follow also does not help the Palestinians.
There is no model of a Jewish democratic state either, LOL.
While I agree that the Arab World needs one and many revolutions, you have
many examples of democracies in countries of Muslim majorities, from Senegal to Turkey, passing by Lebanon – the main Arab democracy, which is also the main victim outside Palestine of Israeli agression.
Most important to me anyhow is how the West with all its “democracy” slogans has failed to support pro-democracy movements in the Arab World (and elsewhere), choosing instead to promote corrupt and fundamentalist, yet obedient dictators. And when chosing between dictators they (“we” in a very loose sense) have chosen always the most fundamentalist ones like Saudia, Egypt or Morocco, sidelining the most secularist and illustrated ones, like Syria or Hussein’s Iraq. The obvious reason is that the rulers of the West (and that means largely of the whole World, at least to this date) prefer these tyrants because they fit better the neocolonialist management plans for the area.
When we stop supporting tyrants like those of Saudia, Morocco or Egypt (and many others) and start promoting democracy, feminism and human rights, not just with words but with facts, then we will see how the Arab reality changes altogether.
But to do that, we would have to sacrify Israel. I don’t really give a dime for that fascist militant regime but it seems they have the right contacts in the high spheres.
That’s why I (and many others) think that, in order to become independent from Zionist policies, we also have to hit hard the Zionist Lobby everywhere, depriving them of the immense power they actually have.
It all begins by not reading this or that pro-Zionist media, not watching Hollywood films and buying products of companies associated with Israel in any way. The Zionist Lobby are “four and a tabourine”, they can’t do anything if we don’t buy their products nor their lies.
Posted by Maju | March 2, 2009, 10:53 pmWhile probably both modern Jews and Palestinians can claim descent from the natives of ancient Palestine, the latter are surely more pure descendants if any and have been living in the country all this time.
The Jews conquered Canaanites and lived among them for centuries before Arabs ever showed up. No, the propagandists have been trying that route for some time now, but it fails in its accuracy.
When we stop supporting tyrants like those of Saudia, Morocco or Egypt (and many others) and start promoting democracy, feminism and human rights, not just with words but with facts, then we will see how the Arab reality changes altogether.
You fail to realize that Hamas is an Islamic Extremist organization, that does not recognize women’s right, or any real freedom. In Iraq, if the extremists were not defeated, they would have installed a Taliban-like regime of Islamic extremism. Islamists are being fought in Afghanistan – the Islamists do not offer freedom to the people, they seek to rule and control the people through terror, beatings, torture, and public executions.
Posted by Q | March 3, 2009, 11:37 amThere was an invasion by the Franco-British of Palestine and other West Asian territories, there was deceit and lies towards the Arabs, with promises of a unified Arab state and decret deals between London, Paris and the Zionists in a totally opposite direction.
You are correct.
Some historians have pointed out that the Sykes-Picot agreement conflicted with pledges already given by the British to the Hashimite leader Husayn ibn Ali, Sharif of Mecca, who was about to lead an Arab revolt in the Hejaz against the Ottoman rulers on the understanding that the Arabs would eventually receive a much more important share of the territory won.
The agreement led to the division of Turkish-held Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Palestine into various French and British-administered areas. The agreement took its name from its negotiators, Sir Mark Sykes of Britain and Georges Picot of France.
So at that point, the area was under the administration of the French and British. IF we like it or not, that is the way it was.
There was a colonial decission to deprive a population of their lands to give them to the Jewish would-be colonists
Firstly, there were attempts to make one nation in Palestine – that proved impossible as the Arabs and Jews fought with each other.
The Sykes-Picot agreement concluded in May 1916. Here is a link. Why did it take so long for anything to be worked out with Palestine, when the other nations were established much more quickly?
Because Arabs and Jews could not get along, it was decided that there should be two states in Palestine. A Jewish State covering 56.47% of Mandatory Palestine (excluding Jerusalem) with a population of 498,000 Jews and 325,000 Arabs; and an Arab State covering 43.53% of Mandatory Palestine (excluding Jerusalem), with 807,000 Arab inhabitants and 10,000 Jewish inhabitants; with international trusteeship regime in Jerusalem, where the population was 100,000 Jews and 105,000 Arabs.
The partition plan also laid down a guarantee of the rights of minorities and religious rights, including free access to and the preservation of Holy Places; and constitution of an Economic Union between the two states: custom union, joint monetary system, joint administration of main services, equal access to water and energy resources.
The Arab League and Palestinian institutions rejected the partition plan, and formed volunteer armies that infiltrated into Palestine beginning in December of 1947.
And as we discussed, they attacked Israel.
In 1920, Palestine was 100% Arab
Palestine was not 100% Arab in 1920. Although that would still not change the fact that the administrators of Palestine were in charge.
There is no model of a Jewish democratic state either
Israel is a democracy, it doesn’t make sense for people to say that it isn’t. Maybe it would only be a democracy if they let all the Palestinians, who have been attacking them, come in and vote?
Does that mean that America would only be a democracy if they let anyone who wanted come across the border and vote? Nations have a right to control immigration policies. Just because a nation is free does not mean it does not have policies concerning citizenship.
You cannot buy a nation, though guess believe you can. Property is not sovereignity. Property is in all countries second to other rights of people and the state.
You can purchase land. Land is purchased, as was the land of Israel. It was not “stolen” as so many people claim.
When Israel was attacked in 1948, then some Palestinian Arabs lost land as a result of being Israel’s enemy. The same in 1967. It is a sad reality that engaging in war comes at a cost, and the cost is greater for the loser.
The damage they cause is in any case always much inferior to the damage the Israeli cause.
That is no excuse for terrorism. Trying to excuse terrorism creates a fatal weakness in the entire argument. The Palestinian view appears to be that, if their people are being killed by Israeli forces, there is no reason why Israeli civilians should be exempt from the suffering. But unfortunately for the Palestinians, what many still see as their most potent weapon – the indiscriminate human bomb – is seen by almost everybody else as illegitimate terrorism.
This is especially true in a post-11 September world where the “war on terror” has become a global clarion call.
attacks directed at the Israeli army would be more likely to garner international support, as many people around the world view Israel’s occupation as illegal and unjust.
But the broader Palestinian population has become, if anything, more radicalized. They want something more than ending the occupation. More than 51% see the liberation of all historic Palestine – and the removal of Israel from the map – as the true goal.
Israel’s overwhelming military superiority will win the day.
There are no civilians in Israel: all are soldiers (except Arab-Israelis who are banned from the army and from nearly anything).
Again, trying to justify terrorism is wrong.
I did not pit the Palestinians against each other. The fact is that they are violent, bloodthirsty people who killed each other in Gaza. That is nothing to laugh about, it speaks to the character of these people.
The point is that they are immigrants and normally immigrants do get the rights of the natives automatically. Instead for this particular case the colonial power decided to give them much more rights.
The immigrants were given their rights in their own nation. The native Jews had the same rights. The native Arabs did not have rights in Israel because they were not going to be citizens of Israel. They could have been citizens in their own country, with all the rights, but they were too ignorant. They were not satisfied to have a nation while allowing Jews to have their own nation. They hated Jews. It’s funny, Jews were persecuted in nearly every other country. When they finally get their own country, they are STILL being persecuted! Why can’t the Arabs just leave them alone?
C’mon! stop being hypocritical: they can’t do anything because Israel won’t allow them to.
That is perhaps the Palestinians biggest problem. The Palestinians are inclined to blame Israel, the Americans, the international community; but the real, essential responsibility ultimately lies with the Palestinians themselves.
Israel… systematic shooting at civlians, mostly children, women and elderly
Unfortunately, that is propaganda. Israel actually takes action to avoid civilian casualties. During this latest war in Gaza, they dropped pamphlets to warn people. In the past they have even used telephones to warn people. It is the way of the propagandists to try to make moral equivalency between Israel’s military action and Palestinian terrorism. But people aren’t stupid. It is not the same.
Posted by Q | March 3, 2009, 11:37 amIsrael is an American ally. Being an American ally has advantages. Another country in the Middle East will have those powerful advantages, an Arab country: Iraq.
US Israel support ‘unshakeable’
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has restated “unshakeable” support for Israel, whatever type of government emerges from current coalition talks.
Mrs Clinton is on her first visit to the region as the top diplomat of Barack Obama’s US administration.
Right-winger Benjamin Netanyahu, who opposes some key US policies, has been asked to form Israel’s next government.
Mrs Clinton also announced two senior US officials would head for Syria, Israel’s long-time foe, for talks.
“We are going to be sending two officials to Syria. There are a number of issues that we have between Syria and the US, as well as the larger regional concerns that Syria obviously poses,” Mrs Clinton said.
Syria had engaged in indirect negotiations with the outgoing Israeli government on the fate of the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights.
The US has kept Damascus at arms length for several years, accusing it of supporting terrorist groups and destabilising its Arab neighbours.
However, analysts say recent diplomatic moves could be a prelude to restoring a US ambassador in Damascus.
Posted by Q | March 3, 2009, 11:42 amSo at that point, the area was under the administration of the French and British. IF we like it or not, that is the way it was.
No disagreement here but it doesn’t really matter: what matters is the will of the people. There would be much more legimity from that viewpoint for the French holding Algeria or Senegal, the Portuguese holding Angola or the Spaniards holding Cuba and Philippines. But the will of the people is what matters.
And Palestinians were agains such colonial occupation and, very especially, the expropiation of their country to give it to foreigner colonists.
Because Arabs and Jews could not get along…
Fallacy.
They had got along all the time since the Arabization of the area. I know of no meaningful complaint on how Arabs or Turks treated religious minorities, including Jews in the area.
The only reason to divide the country was that it was convenient to the Zionist project.
A Jewish State covering 56.47% of Mandatory Palestine (excluding Jerusalem) with a population of 498,000 Jews and 325,000 Arabs; and an Arab State covering 43.53% of Mandatory Palestine (excluding Jerusalem), with 807,000 Arab inhabitants and 10,000 Jewish inhabitants; with international trusteeship regime in Jerusalem, where the population was 100,000 Jews and 105,000 Arabs.
Yes. And that means that 1,300,000 Palestinians were robbed of more than half of their country to make room for 600,000 Jews who were immigrants from Europe.
If that is not an agression, you tell me what is it?
Imagine that they part the USA like that, giving more than half of it to, say, Mexicans or Chinese. What would you say? And Mexicans have a better historical claim to some areas of the USA than Jews have to anywhere in Palestine…
Palestine was not 100% Arab in 1920.
It was. There were still no European immigrants. The Jewish and Christian minorities were Arab.
Israel is a democracy…
False. When the vast majority of Palestinians are denied the right to vote and instead this is granted to recent immigrants a convenience of the Zionazi policies, there is no democracy in Palestine (aka Israel). Furthermore, Arab-Israeli parties are most often forbidden to run. It’s exactly like racist South Africa, where only whites could vote.
You cannot claim that apartheid South Africa was a democracy nor you can claim that Israel is any democracy at all.
Does that mean that America would only be a democracy if they let anyone who wanted come across the border and vote?
Fallacy. Palestinians were there beofore any “Israeli” arrived. They did not migrate to Israel, Israel migrated to them.
You can purchase land. Land is purchased, as was the land of Israel. It was not “stolen” as so many people claim.
Falacy.
Property does not give you sovereignity and can be expropiated or subject to regulations anyhow. Zionists controlled only like 7-9% of the land in 1948.
Nowadays Palestinians are being forbidden to buy land or even to develope the land they already own.
Many Palestinian villages have been razed to the ground and granted to foreign settlers. Talking about the right of property in Israel/Paletine is a cruel joke. Maybe Jews have some legal guarantees but the rest…
That is no excuse for terrorism.
Apply that tale to the IDF, a most wanted terrorist group, along with their secret branch, the Mossad, and their political branch, AIPAC.
Israel’s overwhelming military superiority will win the day.
That’s apology of terrorism.
Again, trying to justify terrorism is wrong.
Then why do you do it all the time?
The immigrants were given their rights in their own nation.
In Germany?
Your tiresome discourse it’s so devilish and twisted that makes me want to punch you right on the nose, you hypocrite murderer!
That is perhaps the Palestinians biggest problem. The Palestinians are inclined to blame Israel…
That’s perhaps the Zionists biggest problem: you cannot put yourself on the shoes of Palestinians. You are so extremely racist that for you any non-Jew is the same as an animal or even worse.
But for the rest of us, not just Palestinians (I am not) it’s so plain and clear that it won’t matter. You can repeat your Goebbelian lies all you want, people is much smarter and they can see and feel empathy for others. When you see the bodies of the Palestinian children massacred by the Zionist terrorists, you have no doubt anymore.
Your discourse, your propaganda is wasted, old and useless. It’s over for the Israeli genocidal project. Moving ahead in a bloody spree of murder will not help you the least, even if I know that you are very much inclined to do so.
The more you kill, torture and rob, the greater your chances of ending like the French colonists of Algeria: pushed back to the sea.
Unfortunately, that is propaganda. Israel actually takes action to avoid civilian casualties.
Unfortunately this, all you say, is mere propaganda.
I bet you’re a paid armchair terrorist from Mossad or AIPAC. You write all that old list of falsehoods, mixed with a few half-truths, that makes up the boring Zionist discourse from always. You have not said anything of your own creation: it’s all the same Zionist balh-blah that you see everywhere else:
Hamas is terrorist, thd IDF are absolute gentlemen. White phosphorus, depleted uranium, DIME bombs, shooting at civilians? All attested once and again by credible witnesses, videos and international watchdogs, are nothing but lies of the enemy, those terrorists… of the Red Cross and Amnesty International.
Israel have the right to the country because blah-blah (Moses, UN, a handful of properties, the Holocaust)… and, especially, because they have nukes and the backing of Washington.
The rights of Zionist immigrant colonists are sacred, the rights of native Palestinians we don’t care a shit about.
Israel is a democracy even if the majority of people subject to Israeli racist laws have aboslutely no rights at all. We have created a farce of pseudo-state, a bantustan of sorts, to make sure they appear as foreign subjects. We still occupy, colonize, take the water and land and make the law in those bantustans, but the people cramped there are considered “foreigners” in their own land.
In due time, when they are sufficiently packed and compacted, like in Gaza, we will gas them all and problem solved. See how we learned something from the Holocaust?, how nice a teacher was Adolf Hitler and, very specially Goebbels, master of lies. Haw haw…
…
The Jews conquered Canaanites and lived among them for centuries before Arabs ever showed up.
Before Romans showed up you must mean. Stop blaming Arabs for all, they never comitted any genocide against Jews, like the Romans or the Germans did.
This is another evidence of how your discourse is full of lies – and is the old boring Zionist blah-blah, including the typical lies about blaming Arabs for the jewish demise in Palestine, something that only Romans are to be blamed for.
You fail to realize that Hamas is an Islamic Extremist organization, that does not recognize women’s right, or any real freedom.
I do not. I know that Hamas is fundamentalist and I don’t like it. But there are fundies and fundies. Hamas is very moderate and does recognize women and minority rights. Would they be allowed to rule, as they are dmocratically entitled to, it would not be much difefrent from Turkey. The “islamism” of Hamas is secularism when compared to many
other Arab regimes or Israel too. They are smart and open minded enough and, especially, they seem honest and unwilling to bow to the Zionist impositions, and that’s what has given them popular support.
Would Arafat be alive instead of that traitor of Abbas…
Israel is an American ally. Being an American ally has advantages. Another country in the Middle East will have those powerful advantages, an Arab country: Iraq.
LOL
Do not compare. The power that Israel and the Zionist Lobby have on Washington’s policy is brutal.
Iraq used to be an ally of the USA, but Israel was uneasy with its growing military and economic power. So Washington invited them to invade Kuwait, and then attacked them.
The dangers of being an ally of Washington while rival of Israel…
Posted by Maju | March 3, 2009, 1:57 pmYour tiresome discourse it’s so devilish and twisted that makes me want to punch you right on the nose, you hypocrite murderer!
I am sorry you feel that way. That is the problem with the Palestinian issue, people use emotion rather that logic and reason.
You are coming into contact with facts that do not fit conveniently in with your theories.
Because Arabs and Jews could not get along…
The 1920 Palestine riots, or Nebi Musa riots
Jaffa riots 1921
1929 Palestine riots
The Hebron Massacre
The 1929 Safed massacre
The 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine
The United Nations General Assembly decided in 1947 on the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem to be an international city. The plan, which was rejected by the Palestinians [Arabs], was never implemented.
In 1948 Israel declared independance, and was ATTACKED BY THE ARABS. Israel defended herself, and the Arabs lost.
The Arabs went to war with Israel in 1948–49, 1956, 1967, 1973–74, and 1982.
The Arabs even tried to divert water from Israel with the Headwater Diversion project in 1965!
The Fedeyeen attacked Israel during the 1950s.
Palestinian groups that support and carry out acts of political violence include Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Fatah’s Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine – General Command, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Abu Nidal Organization.
Palestinian support for suicide bombers
The problem with Hamas is that they are committed to the destruction of Israel, it is even stated in their founding charter. They are responsible for what happened in Gaza. They are Islamic fundamentalists responsible for suicide attacks, murders, and brutalizing their own people. It is strange that you mention democracy and civil rights, and you support Hamas that wants an authoritarian regime at war with its neighbor. You must have to suspend your values to support them.
Israel is a strong nation and is not going to be destroyed by Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, or anyone else. The Palestinians cannot base their success upon the destruction of Israel. That is crazy.
When the vast majority of Palestinians are denied the right to vote and instead this is granted to recent immigrants a convenience of the Zionazi policies, there is no democracy in Palestine (aka Israel). Furthermore, Arab-Israeli parties are most often forbidden to run.
You complain because Israel will not allow herself to be destroyed from the inside? It is their country, they can make the immigration policy, voting laws, ect. They are doing very well, Israel is the most advanced country in the Middle East.
The Palestinians need to start worrying about their own country.
Fallacy. Palestinians were there beofore any “Israeli” arrived. They did not migrate to Israel, Israel migrated to them.
The Israelites had their kingdom in Palestine – in the 12th and 13th centuries B.C. You say that is irrelevant, but if it were the Arabs there in the 12th and 13th centuries B.C. you would say that is relevant.
The Arab invaders arrived in Palestine in 638 AD, conquering it from the Byzantines. You say that is irrelevant, but if it were the Jews arriving in 638 AD to conquer Palestine you would say it is relevant.
You echo the usual litany of complaints, basically the same unproductive protestations and accusations and language that have gotten the Palestinians exactly nothing since the beginning of the Arab-Israeli conflict. It’s the same old same old – self righteous indignation, victimology, innumerable references to Apartheid, turgid analysis… you get the point.
Posted by Q | March 4, 2009, 5:03 pmClinton concern over demolitions
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton says Israeli demolitions of Palestinian homes in Israeli-occupied East Jerusalem are of “deep concern”.
She renewed her commitment to an Israeli-Palestinian peace settlement, saying it was a “commitment I carry in my heart, not just my portfolio”.
US Israel support ‘unshakeable’
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has restated “unshakeable” support for Israel, whatever type of government emerges from current coalition talks.
After meeting Mr Peres, Mrs Clinton said it was important to underscore the “unshakeable, durable and fundamental” US support for the state of Israel… [and] our “unrelenting commitment to Israel’s security”.
“We will work with the government of Israel that represents the democratic will of the people of Israel,” Mrs Clinton said.
Mrs Clinton has repeatedly said the new US administration is committed to the establishment of a Palestinian state as the best way to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Billions pledged to rebuild Gaza
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Washington would donate $900m, and vigorously seek to advance peace.
During her first visit to the Middle East as top US diplomat, she said the aim of the aid was to “foster conditions in which a Palestinian state can be fully realised”.
Hamas, which controls Gaza but is regarded by both the US and the EU as a terrorist organisation, was not invited to attend the one-day conference.
Posted by Q | March 4, 2009, 5:09 pmClinton Promises U.S. Support for Palestinian Statehood
Posted by Q | March 4, 2009, 5:21 pmI am sorry you feel that way. That is the problem with the Palestinian issue, people use emotion rather that logic and reason.
I expected such a shitty pseudo-laid-back reply from you. Instead of facing your guilt as criminals and/or accomplices of criminals you prefer to throw vague and meaningless accusations against the rest.
You murder thousands and thousands yet you are not the terrorists, you expel millions yet you are not the genocidals, you lie all the time yet you have “the reason”.
Because Arabs and Jews could not get along…
All those events happened AFTER the Zionist project was set. What do you expect? People waiting at the slaughterhouse passively? No they will defend, or at least they should defend, themselves and their community.
The United Nations General Assembly decided in 1947 on the partition of Palestine…
You talk of the UN of 1948 like if it was a democratic institution. But the vast majority of seats were held but western powers (states of European culture). Nearly all others voted against. Why? Because it was such an abuse, such an arrogant colonialist enterprise that the countries that had just achieved their independence could not bear that.
The UN resolution of 1947 was illegitimate because was done against the will of the people of Palestine. Not just ignoring it but totally against them. It was an international consensus of agression against Palestine. A criminal injustice that must be undone.
In 1948, a bunch of European colonists, just arrived from overseas, declared with European and American support that they owned more than half of Palestine, de facto declaring total war against the natives. The reaction of the Palestinians and their allies was logical and just.
Btw, who cares about suicide bombers? Can you imagine the desperation a person must be feeling to offer his/her life just for slim hope that it might serve to remedy their extreme oppresion, their dumping in walled ghettoes of desperation like Gaza or all the other concentraton camps that you have made Palestine into where they can expect nothing but death, fast or slow, at the hands of their enemies and guardians.
They are desperated: they will do anything! They just have nothing, absolutely nothing to lose after you have robbed them from all, including their lives. Such suicidal attacks are nothing but their last stand of diginty and despair.
Or do you expect that they applaud while you send them to the gas chambers?
The problem with Hamas is that they are committed to the destruction of Israel
We are all comitted to the destruction of Israel. Every single human with a heart, with compassion, with dignity and with love for freedom. Israel stands as the most horrible crime and insult to Humankind – and very especially for the many accomplices it manages to muster, what is a shame in itself.
Its comitment to not accept Israel and the partition of Palestine is precisely what makes people in palestine and outside rally around Hamas, even people who have absolutely no interest for Islamism can’t but respect that irreductible proud stand of Hamas.
Would you blame the Warsaw Ghetto rebels for anything? I would certainly not. Well, exactly the same is what is going on in Gaza and elsewhere in Palestine: desperate people between the sword and the wall, unable to do anything but to fight to death for their life and freedom.
They are responsible for what happened in Gaza
The only ones responsible for the Gaza genocide is Israel in its totality (nearly all its citizens obviously support genocide) and its accomplices elsewhere (most diaspora Jews, many Christians, many Muslims – Saudia financed it and Egypt actively collaborates with the mass murder, etc.)
It is strange that you mention democracy and civil rights, and you support Hamas that wants an authoritarian regime at war with its neighbor.
I do not support Hamas. I support Palestine and the Palestinian struggle. At the moment Hamas seems the one who’s carrying the torch but the struggle has been going on since the 1920s.
Hamas was elected democratically and as far as I can tell respected the democratic system until Abbas staged a coup with full Zionist support.
I certainly don’t espouse the ideology of Hamas (I’m against all religions) but I acknowledge that they are largely right in their political (and military) activity. They have shown to be wise enough to carry the banner of Palestine as the Palestinian people wants, the same Palestinian people that until few years ago massively supported Arafat (a secularist) but who cannot swallow Abbas (the Palestinian Petain).
Israel is a strong nation…
That is absolutely false: Israel is a tiny state with a population (official data) comparable to Switzerland or Slovakia, to Portugal if we include all Palestinians. It ranks 52 by GDP (PPP), well behind countries like Iran, South Africa, Pakistan, Egypt, Vietnam or Nigeria. It’s comparable to Ireland or Finland by all economical measures.
But Israel is totally dependent on foreign aid anyhow. Even without war it would badly subsist without the massive “overseas taxation” it continuously does via the Israel Lobby. Israel is the most unviable state I could imagine and was being struck by a deep economical crisis long before this international recession exploded. Russian immigrants were going back to Russia en masse, as they found much better opportunities in their homeland than in the colony; that says it all.
The Palestinians cannot base their success upon the destruction of Israel. That is crazy.
No, it’s no crazy. The main cause of the destruction of Palestine has been and is today, every single day, as we talk, Israel. Only destroying the cancer (Israel) can the body (Palestine) be healed.
Cancer cells (Israelis) have two options: joining the body as healthy solidary cells or keep this self-destructive illness. Israel can’t win the same that cancers can’t win: when the body dies the cancer does too.
Your only realistic hope to live in Palestine as citizens with full rights is to embrace it and stop segregation and genocide. That’s what eventually South African whites saw as their only viable option. And that is also the only realistic option for Palestinian Jews (aka Israelis).
You complain because Israel will not allow herself to be destroyed from the inside?
I complain because Israel is a racist regime that denies citizenship to more than half of its de facto subjects, robbing them the land, the lives and the hope.
t is their country, they can make the immigration policy, voting laws, ect.
It is not. It is Palestine. You are being offered to be Palestinians with full rights or go back to wherever you came from.
The Palestinians need to start worrying about their own country.
They do. Don’t be idiotic.
The Israelites had their kingdom in Palestine – in the 12th and 13th centuries B.C. You say that is irrelevant, but if it were the Arabs there in the 12th and 13th centuries B.C. you would say that is relevant.
What I say is that:
1. Most likely modern Palestinians are largely (though not exclusively) descendants of the people who lived there in antiquity, including Jews, Canaanites, Filistines, Samaritans, Roman Palestinians, etc.
2. Most likely modern Jews are only to some extent descendants from ancient Jews. In the Hellenistic, Roman and Middle ages there was a lot of Judaistic proselitism (of which Christianity and Islam are just two of the most succesful products) and there were several states that were largely Jewish (Judaistic) outside Palestine (Yemen, Kursistan, Khazaria…). In roman times, before the genocide against Jews in Palestine, m
ost Jews already lived outside that region, especially in Anatolia. Today genetics seems to place modern (Askhenazi) Jews overlapping with Turkish or other Balcanic/Black Sea peoples, plus some ammount (c. 20%) of Northern European admixture.
In brief: modern Jews can only claim some Palestinian ancestry, probably much less than modern Palestinians, even if these have also mixed with Arabs and other Eastern Mediterranean peoples along the milennia.
The claim of Jews to Palestine is mythic not realistic. Face it.
The Arab invaders arrived in Palestine in 638 AD, conquering it from the Byzantines. You say that is irrelevant, but if it were the Jews arriving in 638 AD to conquer Palestine you would say it is relevant.
Probably yes. Nobody today tries to restore the statu quo of 1300 years ago. Nobody but Zionists, that’s it. 1300 years ago the Basque Country was like this but modern Basques are much more modest and realistic in our claims. 1300 years ago, Greece controlled all modern Turkey but modern Greeks are realistic about it. 1300 years ago there was no Spain and virtually no France, Germany or England.
So why do you go back to 1300 or even more than 3000 years ago? Because it’s a convenient myth to justify your neocrusade, your colonial enterprise. You need a national myth, so dig deep in history and even protohistory to justify your project. But anyone with some discernment and unbiased viepoint can see what would happen if we would go try to restore the reality of 3000 years ago, when modern languages and idenities did not exist yet for the most part.
Restore Etruria? The Phoenician empire? The Assyrian empire maybe? Make Egyptians learn their ancient language and write it hieroglyphs? Turks to become Hittites, Germans and French to learn Gaelic. Abolish Christianity, Islam and Buddhism? Restore America to the natives? That is what you want? Sorry that is only ancient history. Very interesting but something that justifes nothing at all.
And why to stop at 3000 years ago, why not 4000 when the Hebrews were probably just wandering in the desert if they existed at all? Or why not to restore the Paleolithic reality and make Basque (say) the official language of the EU? Yah, why not? Let’s go crazy like the Zionists!
It’s the same old same old – self righteous indignation, victimology, innumerable references to Apartheid, turgid analysis… you get the point.
Righteous, yes. Indignated, very indignated, yes. And, sadly enough, apartheid denounciation and boycott, indeed.
Would not be Zionist apartheid, we would all live much more happy lives surely. Even Jews.
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton says…
Meaningless: Clinton is a Christian Zionist. She will, the same as most of the Obama cabinet and Obama himself, support Israel even against the interests of the USA. And certainly Israel is clearly nowadays a burdensome liability for the USA. But Obama has been massively supported by the Israel Lobby (not just now but along his career), his cabinet chief is an Israeli citizen and his foreign minister is a comitted zionist. There seem to be some resistences, especially among pragmatic generals but so far Obama’s government and politics is as Zionist as it can be.
Would I be a US citizen I would be deeply ashamed of supporting a racist genocidal regime like Tel Aviv.
Posted by Maju | March 5, 2009, 4:07 amThe UN resolution of 1947 was illegitimate because was done against the will of the people of Palestine.
It could be said that rebuilding of Germany and Japan after WW2 was done “against the will of the people.” This means nothing, it is denying reality.
All those events happened AFTER the Zionist project was set. What do you expect? People waiting at the slaughterhouse passively?
The other nations that were administered by France and Britain until they were independant had no problems, Transjordan later Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran, ect.
Palestine was to be one nation, except that it proved impossible, so then it to be two nations. That’s the way it happened, you can’t change it.
In 1919 there were about 568,000 Muslims, 74,000 Christians, and 58,000 Jews in Palestine. The first Arab anti-Zionist riots occurred in Palestine in 1920.
The UN resolution of 1947 was illegitimate…
And so gangs of rampaging Arabs were more legitimate than the U.N.?
Are you from another planet?
The British, declaring their mandate unworkable and despairing of finding a solution, turned the Palestine problem over to the United Nations (Feb., 1947). At that time there were about 1,091,000 Muslims, 614,000 Jews, and 146,000 Christians in Palestine.
Btw, who cares about suicide bombers?
The whole world. Sadly, the Palestinians have lost legitimacy with those failed tactics.
in Gaza and elsewhere in Palestine: desperate people between the sword and the wall, unable to do anything but to fight to death for their life and freedom.
Life and freedom will come with having a Palestinian state. Why would you deny them their own state? Then the standard of living will greatly improve, they can enjoy security and safety, their children can look to a bright future. But there are those who will deny them that. Surely you are aware that some of the surrounding Arabs view the Palestinians as nothing but pawns in a bigger struggle, human weapons to use against Israel?
Israel is a strong nation…
That is absolutely false:
Israel is the strongest nation in the Middle East.
I complain because Israel is a racist regime that denies citizenship to more than half of its de facto subjects…
Defacto subjects? These defacto subjects must make their own nation, and the free world will help them. And when they have their nation, they will control immigration policy, voting laws, and all the business of their country.
The main cause of the destruction of Palestine has been terrorist attacks and Israeli responses. Israel has the right to defend herself, and to prevent terrorist attacks.
Why launch unguided rockets into Israel? It accomplishes nothing.
Genocide? Israelis are not commiting genocide, don’t you know what genocide is? Genocide is the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. Genocide would be carpet bombing the entire population to be rid of the problem once and for all.
Arabs are the ones interested in genocide, from what they wanted to do in Palestine in WW2 – to what the Arab militias are doing in Darfur today. That is genocide.
Defending against attacks and trying to prevent them is not genocide. That fact that you have to lie and misuse words should demonstrate to you that you are wrong.
It is not. It is Palestine. You are being offered to be Palestinians with full rights or go back to wherever you came from.
Israelis are citizens of Israel. Jews are where they came from and where they belong.
The Arabs came from Arabia. They spread during the Islamic expansion. But no one is asking them to go back.
Between 1950 and 1967 when Jordan and Egypt annexed the West Bank and Gaza, they flooded the area with more Arabs.
After 1967 Jordan/Egypt relinquished claims to the area then started to scream for a second Palestinian state in addition to the first Palestinian State of Jordan. Before that, they claimed Palestine meant land of the Jews.
In 1918, with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Britain and France were handed 5,000,000 square miles to divvy up and 99% was given to the Arabs to create countries that did not exist previously. 1% was given as a Mandate for the re-establishment of a state for the Jews on both banks of the Jordan River. In 1921, to once again appease the Arabs, another three quarters of that 1% was given to a fictitious state called Trans-Jordan.
Most likely modern Palestinians are largely (though not exclusively) descendants of the people who lived there in antiquity, including Jews, Canaanites, Filistines, Samaritans, Roman Palestinians, etc.
The Arab Palestinians are no different than the Arabs in the surrounding Arab countries.
I found this website that is interesting: Palestine
and this one: Palestine, region, Asia
Posted by Q | March 5, 2009, 11:33 amSome Palestinian scholars, like Zakariyya Muhammad, have criticized pro-Palestinian arguments based on Canaanite lineage, or what he calls “Canaanite ideology”. He states that it is an “intellectual fad, divorced from the concerns of ordinary people.” By assigning its pursuit to the desire to predate Jewish national claims, he describes Canaanism as a “losing ideology”, whether or not it is factual, “when used to manage our conflict with the Zionist movement” since Canaanism “concedes a priori the central thesis of Zionism. Namely that we have been engaged in a perennial conflict with Zionism—and hence with the Jewish presence in Palestine—since the Kingdom of Solomon and before … thus in one stroke Canaanism cancels the assumption that Zionism is a European movement, propelled by modern European contingencies…”
Posted by Q | March 5, 2009, 11:35 amNobody today tries to restore the statu quo of 1300 years ago…
And in this case, it is impossible to return to the status quo of just 60 years ago.
This is from a pro-Israeli website, but factually correct:
* As a strictly legal matter, the Jews didn’t take Palestine from the Arabs; they took it from the British, who were sovereign in Palestine for thirty years prior to Israel’s declaration of independence in 1948, a sovereignty that was recognized as legitimate by the international community at the time. And the British don’t want it back.
* If you consider the British illegitimate usurpers, fine. In that case, this territory is not Arab land but Turkish land, a province of the Ottoman Empire until the British wrested it from them during the Great War in 1917. And the Turks don’t want it back.
* If you look back earlier in history than the Ottoman Turks, who took over Palestine over in 1517, you find it under the sovereignty of the another empire not indigenous to Palestine: the Mamluks. These were Turkish and Circassian slave-soldiers headquartered in Egypt, who took Palestine over from the Ayyubi dynasty (the descendants of Saladin) in 1250. And the Mamluks don’t even exist any more, so they can’t want it back.
So, going back 800 years, there’s no particularly clear chain of title that makes Israel’s title to the land inferior to that of any of the previous owners. Who were, continuing backward:
* The Mamluks, already mentioned, who in 1250 took Palestine over from:
* The Ayyubi dynasty, who under Saladin conquered Palestine in 1187 from:
* The European Christian Crusaders, who conquered Palestine in 1099 from:
* the Seljuk Turks, who ruled in the name of the Abbasid Caliphate of Baghdad, which in 750 took over of the entire Near East from:
* The Umayyad Caliphate of Damascus, which had inherited control of the Islamic lands in 661 from
* The Arabs from Arabia, who in the first flush of Islamic expansion conquered Palestine in 638 AD from:
* The Byzantines, who (nice people – perhaps it should go to them?) didn’t conquer the Levant but inherited it from:
* The Romans (upon division of the Empire in 395), who in 63 B.C. took it over from:
* The last Jewish kingdom, who during the Maccabean rebellion from 168 to 140 B.C. won control of the land from:
* The Hellenistic Greeks, who under Alexander the Great conquered the Near East in 333 B.C. from:
* the Persian empire, which under Cyrus the Great in 639 B.C. took Mesopotamia and Palestine from:
* The Babylonian empire, which in 586 B.C. under Nebuchadnezzar took Judah and Jerusalem from:
* the Jews, meaning the people of the Kingdom Of Judah, who in their earlier incarnation as the Israelites, seized the land in the 12th and 13th centuries B.C. from:
* the Canaanites, who had inhabited the land for thousands of years before they were dispossessed by the Israelites.
Posted by Q | March 5, 2009, 11:41 amYASSER ARAFAT was a killer. He was responsible for terrorism. He enriched himself at the Palestinians expense.
This post shows a sporting event… have you forgotten what the Palestinians did at the 1972 Olympics in Munich?
The Palestinians need to stop worrying about Israel and worry about their own country. You mentioned if the Americans were in the position that the Palestinians are in: do you think they would languish in misery, conducting useless attacks that bring their own destruction? No, they would develop their country as best they could, they would flourish and grow, they would rely on themselves instead of blaming their neighbor. And when they did go to war, they would fight to win, not to make useless attacks. And they certainly wouldn’t sacrifice their children. Consider they way the Americans fought for Texas. And then when the war was over, they would deal with the consequences, not tell everyone to make suicide attacks – consider the American Civil War.
Anyhow, a way forward must be found in Palestine. The four key issues are Security, Borders, Refugees, and Jerusalem.
Do you subscibe to the endless arguments and impossible demands, or do you want to see the people find a better way to live?
There are Palestinians who are going against your ideology, who are interested in building up their country and people. Do you despise them? Are you against their desire for peace and prosperity? And of course their are those who are radicalized, who embrace hatred and violence. Do you support hatred and violence?
Posted by Q | March 5, 2009, 11:43 amPalestine was to be one nation, except that it proved impossible…
False. There was a plan going on since the 1920s or earlier to make Palestine the homeland for Jews areound the world (notably Askhenazi Jews from northern Europe: the inventors of Zionism). The Balfour declaration already stated that Palestine would be robbed from its people and given away to Europeans of Rabbinic faith. The main accoplice of this devilish plot at the beginnings was the UK, and it’s still today a major metropolis for Israel (though the USA has replaced it in that role as has done in almost everything else).
The other nations that were administered by France and Britain until they were independant had no problems, Transjordan later Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran, ect.
They also had some problems (remember for example the nationalist pro-Nazi coup in Iraq, or the issues regarding “Greater Syria”, or the ethno-religious conflicts in Lebanon, or the negation of Kurdistan). But nowhere was a foreign settlement estabilished as in Palestine.
You talk like if Jews were always there, but, except for a tiny minority, they were not: they were immigrants with no local roots, just fanatic and desperate nationalist feelings. You talk like if Israel wants a two state solution when in fact that’s only blah-blah and what it wants is to annex all Palestine, except, formally, the concentration camps that the cities have become, so Palestinians are subject to Israel with zero rights.
Palestine was to be one nation, except that it proved impossible, so then it to be two nations.
False: it was decided all the time that there will be a Jewish-only colony. What proved impossible was to wipe out Palestinians. So the country was gerrymandered (it has no other name: look at the imposible borders) to grant Jewish colonists more than half of it. Those colonists had arrived in the previous three years for the most part – what right they could have to any part of Palestine? Zero!
And so gangs of rampaging Arabs were more legitimate than the U.N.?
Are you from another planet?
No, you are the one from another planet: Judonia.
You’re exaggerating some inccidents and ignoring the big picture just to justify your pretenses. You are not wearing the Palestinian shoes at any moment and therefore you cannot understand (you do not want to understand) what happened and is happening.
The British, declaring their mandate unworkable and despairing of finding a solution, turned the Palestine problem over to the United Nations (Feb., 1947). At that time there were about 1,091,000 Muslims, 614,000 Jews, and 146,000 Christians in Palestine.
Of those 600,000 Jews, 500,0000 were recent immigrants, arrived in the previous 3 years (mostly holocaust survivors from mainland Europe). They had no rights (other than the general human rights). They had no right to claim anything at all. Maybe they could claim a part of Germany but not Palestine certainly.
The whole world. Sadly, the Palestinians have lost legitimacy with those failed tactics.
The whole world cares, I believe, much more about white phosphorus, depleted uranium, DIME bombs and, in general the massacre that is being comitted every day against Palestinians in Gaza, Jerusalem and the West Bank.
Life and freedom will come with having a Palestinian state. Why would you deny them their own state?
I am not. It’s you who denies them any chance of state. You deny them the right to have their own harbour, the right to make international flights, the right to manage their own water, even the right to recieve humanitarian aid.
You talk about a two-states solution but boycott it by all means. You don’t want two states: you need Palestinian water and want the reminder Palestinian land. There is no viable two states’ solution and you know that perfectly.
If there was any chance of such solution (Oslo accords) it was sabotaged by Zionists long ago. It’s crystal clear that there’s no two-state solutiona and that such discourse only serves to keep apartheid alive by denying Palestinians full citizenship in their own country.
Surely you are aware that some of the surrounding Arabs view the Palestinians as nothing but pawns in a bigger struggle, human weapons to use against Israel?
I am aware of how some of the surrounding Arabs view the Palestinians as pawns in their pathetic struggle to survive economically (Egypt) or to keep a fundamentalist puppet network (Saudia). Both are intimate allies of Israel and the USA.
Israel is the strongest nation in the Middle East.
Only as US outpost. Otherwise it’d be nothing. It’s like trying to make a superpower out of Latvia or Malawi: nonsense. It’s like claiming that North Korea is a great power just because it has some nukes: ridiculous.
Defacto subjects? These defacto subjects must make their own nation…
A bantustan? And you will make sure that they are fragmented, disposessed even of their own water, perpetually occupied by the IDF and that any democratic government is subject to international boycott.
You have not made the slightest effort in that directon anyhow. You are making sure that 15 years after Oslo all remains the same or even worse than before. Hamas is offering truce, a 100 years truce on the 1967 borders. Enough time to work out a long lasting peace or whatever, to build up trust, but you just insist on Palestnians giving you all and licking your blood-stained boots.
The main cause of the destruction of Palestine has been terrorist attacks and Israeli responses.
Israeli attacks. Terrorism is a police matter, not a miliatry one. Go there, arrest the culpirits an grant them a just trial. But you use only martial law, killing 100 innocents for each “terrorist” (and proclaiming such terrorist aim all the time, as if you could scare people that have no hope), like all the fascist regimes everywhere. Even Burma generals are more delicate than Israel.
Israel has the right to defend herself, and to prevent terrorist attacks.
Israel has duties as occupying power and is not fulfilling them at all. It’s using the “terrorist” pretext to go ahead with genocide, which is the worst possible form of terrorism.
Kassam rockets are a joke in comparison with what Israel uses against civilians every day. Who is the terrorist? Or, if both are, who is the greatest terrorist?
The answer is clear: Israel.
Genocide? Israelis are not commiting genocide, don’t you know what genocide is? Genocide is the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Exactly: that is what Isarel is doing to Palestinians. Every day, as we talk.
Physical extermination anyhow is called democide. Genocide has a wider meaning, including forced aculturation, ethnic cleansing, etc. But Israel is doing a gradual but very real genocide since its inception. There’s no doubt about it.
And I have no doubt that, as things go, Israel will soon just gas the Palestinians in the ghettoes, in their own version of the Final Solution. They are just waiting for an opportunity: the steps taken day by day are exactly the same that the Nazis took in the 1930s and 40s.
what the Arab militias are doing in Darfur today.
That is genocide too. That’s why I seldom talk of Arabs but of Palestinians, as obviously Sudanese and Palestinian Arabs are two totally different realities. But both Sudan and Israel share something: they are both racist fundamentalist regimes supported by Saudia.
The Arabs came from Arabia.
Fallacy. There was never a population
replacement but mostly aculturation. Arabs (in Palestine, Egypt, Syria, etc.) are Arabized something else.
Palestinians have the highest worldwide levels of (typically Semitic) haplogroup J1, only surpassed by a Palestinian subgroup: Negev Bedouins. Jews also hav some J1 (but at much lower levels) and instead they exceed in J2, more common further north and west.
Between 1950 and 1967 when Jordan and Egypt annexed the West Bank and Gaza, they flooded the area with more Arabs.
With refugees from Israel, you mean.
In 1918, with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Britain and France were handed 5,000,000 square miles to divvy up and 99% was given to the Arabs to create countries that did not exist previously. 1% was given as a Mandate for the re-establishment of a state for the Jews on both banks of the Jordan River. In 1921, to once again appease the Arabs, another three quarters of that 1% was given to a fictitious state called Trans-Jordan.
Sorry I don’t see how those figures could be right: How Palestine (mandatory Palestine) can be only 1% of the Arab lands held by the Ottoman Empire. Obviously you are considering desert in the equation but stll it’s impossible.
Anyhow even if the states did not exist previously, they had peoples in them and those peoples had and have the right to self-determination. This applies to Arabs as to Kurds. Nobody has the right to annex somebody else’s land to create a colony. Though guess it was within the spirit of the age, as Africa had just been partitioned as well and Europeans briefly ruled the world with firm hand.
The Arab Palestinians are no different than the Arabs in the surrounding Arab countries.
Not too much different, logically, as all are desecndants mostly from locals of antiquity (with some recent “true Arab” flow and various general gene shaking because of being such a crossroads). But Palestinians show some peculiarities. I have already emntioned the high J1 (and highly diverse) what makes the province the most likely origin of this important haplogroup (common among Semites in general, including Jews, as well as some Caucasian groups – here “Caucasian” means from the Caucasus region). They re also high and diverse in E1b1b, a clade derived from NE Africa but that probably had in Natufians or its Kebaran predecessors a secondary core, reaching from them into Greece and other parts of Europe (and also somewhat common among Jews).
Some Palestinian scholars, like Zakariyya Muhammad, have criticized pro-Palestinian arguments based on Canaanite lineage, or what he calls “Canaanite ideology”. He states that it is an “intellectual fad, divorced from the concerns of ordinary people.”
I agree that is quite uninportant. But helps countering the Jewish claims of legitimacy that often try to dig in antiquity. It is anyhow a rather realistic claim. I can also understand why Panarabists and Islamists would be against such digging into the past. But I am personally interested in it (I just have a passion for prehistory and genetics).
thus in one stroke Canaanism cancels the assumption that Zionism is a European movement, propelled by modern European contingencies…”
I don’t see how one thing can deny the other. I fully agree that the real issue is that: European colonization in recent decades. But as Zionists often try to legitimate their claim builing up myths on the remote past, it is also of some interest to dig in ancient history and prehistory. And the results, as far as I can see, rather reject the Jewish claim of ancient Palestinian origins (it would be true only to a very limited extent) and support the Palestinian ones instead.
And in this case, it is impossible to return to the status quo of just 60 years ago.
Well, it’s clear that second generation colonists would have to be recognized full citizenship but it’s also clear that only a one state solution is viable. The question is if that state will be Apartheid Israel or a non-racist Palestine.
YASSER ARAFAT was a killer. He was responsible for terrorism.
He became so popular because he picked up the torch of Palestinian struggle for freedom and that’s what the Palestinians expected from their leaders. Now Fatah has betrayed such hopes and therefore Hamas has picked up the orch of freedom.
It’s much like Petain and De Gaulle. You could well argue that De Gaulle was a “terrorist”, an outlaw fighting against his own (lackey) government and the (“legal”) occupation forces. But De Gaulle had the legitimacy and Petain is judged now as just another Quisling.
This post shows a sporting event… have you forgotten what the Palestinians did at the 1972 Olympics in Munich?
I was 4-years old, c’mon! It’s something I read about on history books only. Have you forgotten all the crimes comitted by the zionists against Palestinians in all this time?
Anyhow, does the attack against Sri Lanka cricket team say anything about the legitimacy of Tamil claims in NW Ceylon? It’s just an epysode, surely dspicable, but overall not too meaningful.
Anyhow, a way forward must be found in Palestine. The four key issues are Security, Borders, Refugees, and Jerusalem.
The main issue is human rights, followed by democracy.
For Israel the main issues are: water (mostly taken from the West Bank and denied to Palestnians), land for the new colonist arrivals from Russia, and where to dump the undesired Palestinians or how to find a pretext to gas them. That’s what we see in how Israel behaves.
Do you subscibe to the endless arguments and impossible demands, or do you want to see the people find a better way to live?
I want people to find freedom and dignity in their own country. And I see the only good, viable, solution being the South African one: no more apartheid, no more bantustans, one person = one vote.
Israel had a opportunity to make a more than good deal in the two-states direction and wasted it. Why? Because Israel needs the West Bank (water, land, borders). So it’s crystal clear that there is no two-states solution and that insisting on it only means diplomatic waste of time (what seems to be the favorite Zionist game).
The case is, I repeat, which one state should be: apartheid Israel (heading to their own Final Solution for the “Palestinian problem”, the Gaza massacres are just the entrance) or a democratic unified Palestine with equal rights for all?
There are Palestinians who are going against your ideology…
It’s not a matter of ideology but of pragmatism and human rights. Those people are being decieved and manipulated. I don’t despise them, but I pity their short-sightedness the same I pity those Jews that hoped to strike a deal with the Nazis.
It’s fully clear that Israel needs and wants all Palestinians out by any means. All the rest is just blah-blah, bantustan creation to keep Palestinians without Israeli citizenship, while the Final Solution arrives.
Posted by Maju | March 5, 2009, 4:53 pmIran, Hamas defend wanted Sudanese president
Hamas ‘harming Gaza opponents’
A rights group has accused Palestinian organisation Hamas of killing or maiming alleged collaborators and political opponents in Gaza.
Hamas police ‘seize aid for Gaza’
Hamas policemen have seized thousands of blankets and food parcels that were meant to be distributed to Palestinian civilians in Gaza, UN officials say.
EU envoy lays Gaza blame on Hamas
Gaza ruins pose questions for Hamas
Hamas still has enough power and influence here that few will criticise the Islamist movement openly.
But when Hamas called for a rally to celebrate what it has been calling a historic victory over the Israelis, the citizens of Gaza voted with their feet – they stayed at home.
Posted by Q | March 6, 2009, 2:56 pm*
Sudan dismisses a warrant issued by the International Criminal Court against its president as a plot, and expels aid groups.
*
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon asks Sudan to reconsider its decision to expel aid agencies from the country.
*
The UN Security Council reaches no agreement on a call for Sudan to reverse a decision to expel aid agencies from Darfur.
*
U.N. human rights office said it was examining whether Sudan’s expulsion of 13 aid organizations from Darfur could also constitute a war crime.
*
Iran and the Palestinian militant group Hamas showed their support for Sudan’s president, sending top officials to the Sudanese capital and denouncing the international warrant for his arrest on charges of war crimes in Darfur.
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Iran and Hamas have been long time allies of Sudan’s President Omar al-Bashir, whose government is dominated by Muslim fundamentalists and military officers.
*
Iran’s parliament speaker, Ali Larijani, arrived in Khartoum along with Moussa Abu Marzouk, the No. 2 figure in Hamas’ Damascus-based leadership. Larijani told reporters at the airport that the ICC’s arrest warrant is an “insult.” Also in their delegation were Syrian Parliament Speaker Mahmoud al-Abrash and representatives from other Palestinian militant factions.
*
Posted by Q | March 7, 2009, 8:48 amDebunking the outrageous comparison between Israel and racist South Africa.
The explicit goal of bantustans was the elimination of rights of the majority South African black population, to ensure white hegemony.
The explicit goal of the security fence is preventing surreptitious terrorist entry to Israel, which has caused the murder of hundreds of Israeli civilians.
A central goal of official apartheid “separate development” was to strip black South Africans of their citizenship.
West Bank Palestinians were never citizens of Israel. (Arabs, meanwhile, constitute 15% of the Israeli citizenry.)
Between 1950 and 1986, about 1.5 million Africans were forcibly removed from “white” cities to rural reservations.
The security fence causes no transfer of population.
Posted by Q | March 7, 2009, 9:42 amSouth African blacks, cordoned into bantustans, did not seek the destruction of South Africa, but rather the removal of the apartheid regime.
The majority of Palestinians in the territories dispute Israel’s very right to exist; this has bred terror, and ultimately, the need for the fence.
South African bantustans were an effort to force a permanent international status on lands, and the black population living there
The security fence is a temporary defensive measure, not a border; inconveniences caused by the fence are reversible.
South African “separate development” was an outgrowth of imperialist, colonial policy.
Israel is “colonial” neither with regard to the source of its population (mostly refugees), nor their deep historical relationship to the land.
Posted by Q | March 7, 2009, 9:44 amThe explicit goal of bantustans was the elimination of rights of the majority South African black population, to ensure white hegemony.
The explicit goal of the security fence is preventing surreptitious terrorist entry to Israel, which has caused the murder of hundreds of Israeli civilians.
I am not talking to the wall, that could be better compared to Berlin Wall or whatever. I am talking about keeping half or more of the Palestinian population excluded from citizenship and human rights, expelled from their homes, robbed from their water, their olives uprooted, their lives under continuous military control (miluitary terror), etc.
You are just parroting some manual. The reality is that Israel has annexed all Palestine in fact and keeps half of them living like rats, with no rights but to be killed silently.
That is apartheid of he worst kind. But even in South Africa we never saw anything like the massacre of Gaza, so I fear the next step is just the gas chambers, something the Afrikaners never dared or planned at all.
South African apartheid can be considered even “mild and benevolent” when compare with Palestine under the six pointed star.
A central goal of official apartheid “separate development” was to strip black South Africans of their citizenship.
West Bank Palestinians were never citizens of Israel. (Arabs, meanwhile, constitute 15% of the Israeli citizenry.)
See: you have already done it “magically” with a word play (Israel/Palestine). You have denied Palestinians their citizenship yet you take their lands and their lifes.
Exactly what racist South Africans tried to do, you have already done. They never managed to get international recognition for their scheme but you have managed to gain wide support among the corrupt elites of the world for yours.
You have made all us accomplices of your crime that way. And we just don’t want to: we want to stand up to that genocide, to stand up for human rights.
South African blacks, cordoned into bantustans, did not seek the destruction of South Africa, but rather the removal of the apartheid regime.
Exactly what Palestinians want to do in Palestine. Israel just means “white racist Palestine”, just that Jews and Arabs are all similarly white – but that doesn’t change anything: the local group is opressed and derpived of all rights by another group of European colonists.
South African “separate development” was an outgrowth of imperialist, colonial policy.
Israel is “colonial” neither with regard to the source of its population (mostly refugees), nor their deep historical relationship to the land.
FALSE!
White South Africans had much more deep conection to their land that most Palestinian Jews do. They were colonists but many had been there for centuries already.
Most recent colonists to Israel are not refugees at all. The condition of refugees of people fleeing Europe AFTER WWII (not anymore under the Nazi boot) is more than doubtful. Only Arab Jews may claim such condition maybe but they are only a small fraction of Palestinian Jews (Israelis).
Whatever the case, being refugee does not entitle you to rob someone else’s land.
Posted by Maju | March 7, 2009, 10:05 pmThat is apartheid of he worst kind. But even in South Africa we never saw anything like the massacre of Gaza, so I fear the next step is just the gas chambers, something the Afrikaners never dared or planned at all. The only ones who planned to put anyone in gas chambers in Palestine were the Arabs during WWII. Mufti Amin Al Husseini met with Hitler to arrange the creation of death camps in the Arab world which would be his tools for the extermination of Middle East Jews, he pledged support of the Arab-Islamic Ummah to the Nazi regime, and progressed Muslim Nazi [Handschar] divisions.Apartheid has nothing to do with Israel, that was South Africa. Propagandists like to use words like that, along with words like genocide, ect ectYou have denied Palestinians their citizenship yet you take their lands and their lifes. I have denied nothing. As far as Palestinian citizenship, they need to establish their state so they can be citizens. They are not, and are never going to be Israelis. That's silly. South African blacks, cordoned into bantustans, did not seek the destruction of South Africa, but rather the removal of the apartheid regime.What that means is: Palestinians seek the destruction of Israel, unlike the South African blacks. Palestinians attacks Israel, commit terrorism, suicide attacks, rockets, ect. (all of which you make excuses for). Most recent colonists to Israel are not refugees at all. The condition of refugees of people fleeing Europe AFTER WWII (not anymore under the Nazi boot) is more than doubtful. Only Arab Jews may claim such condition maybe but they are only a small fraction of Palestinian Jews (Israelis). Lies. Why are you telling lies?
Posted by Q | March 16, 2009, 6:47 amWhatever the case, being refugee does not entitle you to rob someone else’s land.
Ownership of land is made possible by the governing authority that has jurisdiction over the land.
Palestine was under the authority of the Ottomans, after WWI Ottoman authority ended and Palestine was put under the authority of the British. When the mandate ended, Palestine was under the authority of the U.N.
Posted by Q | March 16, 2009, 10:53 amApartheid has nothing to do with Israel, that was South Africa.
Are you telling me that Israel has not grabbed nearly all the land (and water, and legal rights) for an immigrant group at the expense of the native Palestinians? Are you telling me that the fragmentation of Palestine, and then remaining Palestine, into tiny enclaves designed only to hold millions of people prisioner and deprived of civil rights in their own country is not exactly the same that white South Africa did to deprive Blacks from any citizenship rights?
In SA there were two classes: whites and non-whites, in Israel there are two: Israelis and Palestinians. And Palestinians are surely treated even worse than Blacks were treated in racist South Africa.
I have denied nothing.
By “you”, I mean you the Zionists (plural) and also you (singular) as speaker of the Zionist propaganda machinery. You are as guilty as Sharon, Netanyahu, Olmert or Livni because you are their acive accomplice. Exactly the same as the base supporter or middle bureaucrat of the Nazi regime was as guilty as Hitler and Goebbels.
As far as Palestinian citizenship, they need to establish their state so they can be citizens.
I would laugh at your sarcasm would it not be so deadly serious. You mean they need to estabilish their bantustan in the tiny fragmented enclaves that Israel might allow them to if they kiss it’s metaphorical arse, right? And then they might get what? A transit card to travel from Jerico to Nablus? Wait… who said these two cities will even be in the Palestinian bantustan? Probably Israel will claim them anyhow, as well as the rest of the remainder Palestine when they have the slightest chance of deporting or just slaughtering all them.
Get real! There is no 2-state solution: Israel wants it all and at most it might accept a bantustan in order to have a pretext to deny citizenship to Palestinians (it’s the only reason why it has not simply annexed the West Bank in its totality).
What that means is: Palestinians seek the destruction of Israel, unlike the South African blacks.
They also sought the destruction of White South Africa. Palestinians equally seek the destruction of the Jewish-dominated Palestine (aka Israel). It’s just a word play, there’s absolutely no conceptual difference.
Lies. Why are you telling lies?
I am not. The only one twisting reality to fit to the ideological discourse of a morally defeated racist genocidal regime is you.
You accuse me of telling lies for saying that:
1. “Most recent colonists to Israel are not refugees at all.” Let’s see: are Russian Jews “refugees”? US Jews? C’mon!
2. “The condition of refugees of people fleeing Europe AFTER WWII (not anymore under the Nazi boot) is more than doubtful.” Certainly after the liberation by Soviet and Western troops, Jews were not anymore suffering persecution. Hence they were not refugees.
3. “Only Arab Jews may claim such condition maybe but they are only a small fraction of Palestinian Jews (Israelis)”. AFAIK the Arab Jewish refugees flowing to Israel were like 600,000, a fraction of all Israelis.
Ownership of land is made possible by the governing authority that has jurisdiction over the land.
It still does not give any sovereignity right. Jewish-owned land in mandatory Palestine in 1947 was a tiny fraction of the country anyhow. You would probably find easier to argument based on population than on the ridiculously low ammount of land owned by Jews then.
Palestine was under the authority of the Ottomans, after WWI Ottoman authority ended and Palestine was put under the authority of the British. When the mandate ended, Palestine was under the authority of the U.N.
Have you ever heard of the concept “democracy”? It means rule of the people, for your interest.
And have you ever heard of the right to self-determination? It is generally acknowledged that colonies (and mandates) have it, even if it’s often disputed when it affects metropolitan areas. Of course the right to self-determination applied to colonies has been violated in other few cases like West Sahara (sold to Morocco by an ailing fascist tyrant), East Timor (recently solved) and West Papua (still unsolved). But these other wrongdoings do not excuse the aberration, the crime, done against Palestine.
Btw, check this documentary film by an Israeli author: The Zionist Story. The demonstration that Jewish or Israeli people are not the problem, Zionists are.
Posted by Maju | March 16, 2009, 2:57 pmJaunākais valūtas maiņas kurss saskaņā ar Latvijas Bankas noteikto valūtas kursu. Eiro, dolāru, mārciņu un kronu valūtas maiņas kursi. Valūtas kursa svārstības pēdējā mēneša laikā. Ērti lietojams valūtas konvertētājs valūtas maiņas aprēķināšanai. Izdevīgākās valūtas maiņa bankas. Svarīgākā finanšu informācija vienuviet.
Posted by izdevīgākais valūtas kurss | March 19, 2010, 1:30 pm