Guest Post by Nahida Izzat, an exiled Palestinian
Un-Merry Christmas for me!
What is going on?
“Hello is this the Christmas Help Line?”
“Yes… good afternoon and merry Christmas
Angela speaking
How can I help you?
Are you feeling lonely today?”
“Absolutely, awfully lonely
And I have a serious problem
Grave one without a doubt
May be you could help… sort me out
People around me are buoyant and joyful
Oblivious to what’s happening
To the precious baby
They’re rejoicing for
Celebrating his birthday
While he’s dying
A thousand deaths a day
Feasting lavishly
Partying like mad
While he’s awaiting starvation
Persecution… torture… humiliation
And targeted assassination
Isn’t that sad
Oh little baby of Nazareth
Can they not sense your pain?
Can they not see you bleeding?
Can they not hear you weeping?
Time and time again
And you, little town of Bethlehem
Can you hear them singing your name?
Do you feel the stabbing of their feet
As they dance over your wounds with glee
While you’re drenched with hurt and shame
Oh little town of Bethlehem
Have they not noticed
The limbless forsaken petrified child
They have made you
As they dragged you into their fantasy fame
Oh wingless heartbroken Jerusalem
Tell me
How can they fail to see your tears?
Are they blissfully ignorant or pretending to be?
Would they pop up their life-bubbles
And face reality
“Dear caller
Who is speaking?
I didn’t catch your name?
Be reassured
It’s all confidential
Every thing you say?”
“Have you heard of Jesus?
I am his mother… who raised him
I am his daughter… who loved him
I am his sister… who held him
I am his friend… who embraced him
I am the fisherman… who fed him
I am the wise-man … who visited him
I am the Shepard… who believed him
I am the disciple… who followed him
I am the Palestinian … who made my heart his home”
“Oh… yes… I see”
“Dear Angela
You know what?
I’ve never had a happy Christmas
Since I was born
Dear Angela
I know that this conversation is not to be disclosed
But I am begging you not to keep it so
Dear Angela… go
Just go
Tell your colleagues
Friends and family
And everyone you know
Tell of my story
Spread every word you’ve heard
Dear Angela
The root of the problem
The cause of my pain
Is that… no body knows
What’s going on
Or do they?
I don’t know
But if they do…
Then…
I really want to know
What’s going on?
Nahida Izzat
Exiled Palestinian
30-09-2006
(c) 2006 by Nahida Izzat, an exiled Palestinian
[Tarboush Tip: Mahmoud El-Yousseph]
Related posts:
- Merry Christmas, Bethlehem
- Merry Christmas…
- Christmas Under Occupation
- Christmas and Art
- Christmas in Context
Excuse me, but Palestinians do not have any special claim on Christianity. That's a myth. The followers of Jesus were exiled from the Holy land and they first resided in Asia Minor, which is where the first 7 Christian Churches were built. And the first Christian country/people was Armenia. Christianity was re-introduced in the Holy land at some later date. It's misleading to imply that Christianity has existed in the holy Land continuously since the time of Jesus.
My other objection to this poem is that it isn't in the traditional Christmas spirit. As such, I have doubts about whether the author is even Christian at all, because it seems odd to me that a Christian would try to exploit the celebration of the birth of their savior for political purposes.
Posted by programmer craig | December 18, 2009, 9:52 pm"As such, I have doubts about whether the author is even Christian at all, because it seems odd to me that a Christian would try to exploit the celebration of the birth of their savior for political purposes."
Wait–are you accusing her of being a Republican?
Posted by Cig. | December 19, 2009, 2:50 amAre Republicans going around pretending to be Muslims and re-inventing Ramadan and other Muslim holidays in a cheap attempt to try to make Muslims feel guilty, Cig? No? Then there is your answer.
Posted by programmer craig | December 19, 2009, 4:45 amI was beginning to miss you Programmer Craig….I really do not know her faith…but I sure like her poem. I think moat Muslims would be happy not to get the support of the Armageddon-loving Evangelist who cheer for the other team! have a great weekend
Posted by Hanitizer | December 18, 2009, 10:14 pmI was beginning to miss you Programmer Craig….
What you talking about, Hani? I've been around. I just don't see much on this blog worth commenting on
I really do not know her faith…but I sure like her poem.
Of course you do.
I think moat Muslims would be happy not to get the support of the Armageddon-loving Evangelist who cheer for the other team!
As opposed to the type of Christian who cheers for the Muslim team? lol.
As far as "Armageddon loving Evangelists", I think Islam has Christianity beat on both counts. By a lot. Which is why whenever I see an Arab complaining about Christians who look forward to Armageddon and are Evangelical, I assume that's an Arab Christian talking
Posted by programmer craig | December 18, 2009, 10:26 pmAha!
http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/
I assume by the fact she is wearing hijab in that photo, that she is Muslim. So why is she writing a poem about Christmas, Hanitizer? Especially one which is so exploitative?
Posted by programmer craig | December 18, 2009, 10:31 pmYou don't have to be a Christian to write a poem on Jesus. Muslims revere Jesus. Muslims consider him as one of Gods greatest prophets, with the likes of Muhammad(pbuh), Moses, Noah, Abraham, etc..
And the fact that a Muslim should be penalized for writing a poem based around Christmas day is very narrow minded. You don't have a problem when Christians draw pictures of the Muslim prophet Muhammad(pbuh), while condemning those who protest as free-speech-haters.
Posted by OooKhalid | December 19, 2009, 4:56 amIt's the nature of the poem that is the problem, Khalid.
Posted by programmer craig | December 19, 2009, 8:50 pmPS, Khalid: I'm glad to see you acknowledge that this poem is the equivalent of the cartoons that disrespectfully portrayed Mohammad. What was up with that stuff you were babbling on about earlier which tried to imply Christians should be happy that a Muslim woman wrote a poem like this about our biggest holiday? Why did it take you 2 days to get honest?
Posted by programmer craig | December 19, 2009, 9:26 pmI'm sorry… i did not acknowledge that the poem is the equivalent to the caricatures. I have found nothing in this poem that would hurt the sentiments of a Christians. I have shown this poem to Christian friends of mine and they have not shown any feelings of disgust or revoltness, which you have amply shown.
But ofcourse not everyone is the same. Maybe we are all lost in translation. Just like Christians were with the caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad(pbuh). So it would help me greatly if you could point out those verses of the poem which has hurt your sentiments; and why those verses should amount to bigotry.
Would you protest if the poet was a Christian?
Posted by OooKhalid | December 20, 2009, 10:28 amI'm sorry… i did not acknowledge that the poem is the equivalent to the caricatures.
Well, that's disappointing! Because this poem is actually worse than the caricatures in my opinion. They were just insulting and disrespectful. This poem is insulting and manipulative. It's also mean-spirited because the intent is to make Christians feel guilty about something they haven't even done, on the most important holy day in Christianity.
Would you have protested if the poet was a Christian?
It was obvious the poet was not a practicing Christian from the start, Khalid. And yes, i would have objected if an atheist wrote a poem about Christmas that was obviously a mean spirited attempt to make Christians feel guilty about something that served the agenda of militant atheism.
I have shown this poem to Christian friends of mine and they have not shown any feelings of disgust or revoltness, which you have amply shown.
Maybe they were just being sensitive towards your feelings, since they are friends of yours?
Posted by programmer craig | December 20, 2009, 10:03 pmSo it would help me greatly if you could point out those verses of the poem which has hurt your sentiments; and why those verses should amount to bigotry.
Posted by Ooo | December 21, 2009, 4:08 amSince I consider the whole thing offensive, maybe it would be easier if you point out which parts you think I should be OK with? I've got a problem with her initial intent, so everything she wrote is fruit of the poisoned tree.
Posted by programmer craig | December 21, 2009, 11:42 amSo you fine nothing wrong with the verses but you are throwing up a tantrum because you ASSUME the intent of the poet was unjust.
Well i'm sorry i can't argue with you, just on the basis of your assumption. If you have no problem with the hard contents of the poem, well then its your own personal choice of appreciation of the arts.
I hate Michaelalengo because i ASSUME his intent for art was just to rival DaVinci.
Big Deal.
I don't cry out my sorrow on public forums like a child.
Suck on a lolly. It'll help to ease the pain
Posted by OooKhalid | December 22, 2009, 4:05 amBeautiful poem.
Something for Caucasian Christians to ponder over.
Posted by OooKhalid | December 19, 2009, 4:17 amNo, it's only something non-Caucasian Muslims such as yourself think is something for Caucasian Christians to ponder. What I'm pondering is Muslims who are so shallow they don't even spend a minute or two thinking about how they would react if Christians were trying to exploit Islamic holy days for their own selfish political benefit. Or do you just think that Christians enjoy that, or something? Well, I'm here to tell you human nature is the same all over, Khalid. This young Muslima should be ashamed of herself for what she did. In any case, I can guarantee you that there isn't one Christian on the planet who will read that poem and react favorably to it.
Hanitizer, that's the second time in a week you've tried to drag Christianity into the Arab-Israeli conflict. Knock it the fuck off. If you think it's funny, you're very wrong.
Posted by programmer craig | December 19, 2009, 4:55 amOoops ! did i just strike a nerve there??
hehe..
Posted by OooKhalid | December 19, 2009, 5:38 amYou consider religious bigotry "striking a nerve", eh? Guess you and this Muslim poet are really racking up the points!
No wonder everyone gets along so well in the ME, eh?
Posted by programmer craig | December 19, 2009, 6:42 amWhy is the color of one's epidermis so important to you?
Posted by C.H. | December 19, 2009, 4:44 amHanitizer, one more try at getting you to take this up seriously. Why is this Muslim woman writing a poem about not having a "Merry Christmas", when she is not Christian? Does it make sense to you? Is it possible to even view this poem as anything but a cheap and exploitative stunt?
Posted by programmer craig | December 19, 2009, 6:48 amProgrammer Craig, I saw the Hebrew Hammer few days ago on Hulu, I thought it was hilarious how they solved the Santa crisis, without involving religions. I will post a letter next week, a letter to Santa by a Muslim vet named Mahmoud. I do not know if the letter is cheap, but it defiantly speaks to people in a language that relate to them at the time of Christmas. Trust growing up in Gaza, we used to watch shows with Baba Noel all the time..Many Christians as you know do not like him, because he is just a character like Mikey Mouse
Posted by Hanitizer | December 19, 2009, 4:01 pmI do not know if the letter is cheap, but it defiantly speaks to people in a language that relate to them at the time of Christmas.
I'm not sure I trust your judgment on that, Hani. It was the fact this poem was not written in the Christmas spirit (you know what that is, right?) that clued me in that the author was not Christian, in the first place. Considering the fact she was trying to capitalize on Christmas to score political points, that was a pretty big blow it.
I don't care why this author is trying to drag Christians into the fight, because I don't interact with her. Can you explain to me why YOU are? And furthermore, can you explain why you are trying to leverage Christmas to do it? Christmas is a time of celebration and family, not a time when Christians try to make each-other miserable.
Posted by programmer craig | December 19, 2009, 8:59 pmYou must know that Christians Palestinians (Yes! there are Palestinian Muslims. *Surprise* No! we Muslims never carried out an Inquisition) are just as much a victim to Israeli war crimes as the Muslim Palestinians.
Why? Caus they all live in the open air prison called Gaza.
Just Google – Gaza Christians
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,189…
Posted by OooKhalid | December 20, 2009, 12:52 pmSince you know how to use Google perhaps you should try finding reports of Palestinian Christians being persecuted and victimized by Palestinian Muslims, Khalid? This post is not about Israeli Jews, you know? It's about how Christians should feel guilty about how Palestinians are treated by Israeli Jews. I'm proposing Palestinian Muslims such as this poet should instead feel guilty about how they treat Palestinian Christians.
Posted by programmer craig | December 20, 2009, 10:06 pm//I'm proposing Palestinian Muslims such as this poet should instead feel guilty about how they treat Palestinian Christians. //
It is your right to propose what you wish. Just as it is the poet's right to express her art as she wishes. There should be no problems unless it insults and unjustly degrades a nation or an ideology/religion; which the poet has clearly not done. And if she has, please be so kind as to point out the verses which degrades Christianity and with the relevant explanation (afterall we are Muslims and sometimes don't share the same sense of sensitivities with Christians and vice-verse)
Posted by OooKhalid | December 21, 2009, 7:01 am//This post is not about Israeli Jews, you know? It's about how Christians should feel guilty about how Palestinians are treated by Israeli Jews//
I agree with you; this post is not about Jews.
The wisdom behind my post was to state that Muslims are not the only victims of Israeli terrorism but also the Arab Christians. You can consider the poem to be an appeal to Caucasian Christians to have sympathy for their Arab Christian brethren; and support them in their struggle against the Zionist aggression on their homeland.
Posted by OooKhalid | December 21, 2009, 7:03 amThe wisdom behind my post was to state that Muslims are not the only victims of Israeli terrorism but also the Arab Christians.
That's the genesis of my complaint with the poem right there, Khalid. Muslims are guilty of some pretty egregious persecution of Christians. And as far as I know, Jews are not. So when a Muslim is calling upon Christians to stand in solidarity with them (Muslims) against Jews on the grounds that Jews are persecuting Christians, that's intellectually dishonest and it's also grossly offensive.
You can consider the poem to be an appeal to Caucasian Christians to have sympathy for their Arab Christian brethren; and support them in their struggle against the Zionist aggression on their homeland.
That's an appeal that makes no sense whatsoever. If Christians are to stand in solidarity against the people who have been persecuting Christians, who will they stand against? Who persecutes Christians more than anyone else, Khalid?
Posted by programmer craig | December 21, 2009, 11:52 amI'm sorry but your i was unable to understand your post's relevance to the issues i brought up.
Either i was unable to make my statement clear enough or you have failed to understand it well enough.
Posted by OooKhalid | December 21, 2009, 1:09 pm//..Google…..reports of Palestinian Christians being persecuted and victimized by Palestinian Muslims//
I condemn any form of unjust oppression on innocent civilians be them the Christian Inquisition, Christian Witch Burning, Crusades conquest of Jerusalem, Young Turks Armenian-Genocide, Nazi Holocaust, Serbian Ethnic Cleansing, Zionist Nakba, etc..
However i have failed to obtain any reference to such persecution of Palestinian Christians by Muslims in the Holy Lands.
Maybe you should try googling like me -Palestinian Christians being persecuted-
==In Jerusalem, he (Siniora, 72, a Palestinian Christian) says, Palestinian Christians have nothing to fear from Muslims. In Gaza and the West Bank, "There are instances of harassment, but it's not by Hamas, it's not by Fatah and it doesn't represent the attitude of the general Palestinian public. It's by little groups of violent Muslim fanatics, hoodlums, and we're talking about isolated incidents."==
Posted by OooKhalid | December 21, 2009, 7:05 amIs it possible to even view anything you write as anything but a cheap and exploitative stunt? You are just using this as yet another attempt to vent your hatred of Muslims. It has already been explained to you how some Muslims celebrate Christmas traditions, if not the religious holiday itself. It has been explained to you that Muslims regard Jesus as one of their prophets. Yet you think it "exploitive" that a Muslim would write a poem about Jesus.
I don't see you complaining about the way Christian tradition is being exploited by the annual commercial schlockfest known as the Christmas "holiday season." You don't seem to have a problem with Jewish merchants having Christmas sales or playing Christmas music of a religious nature, when their religion teaches them that Christianity is a form of idolatry. Islam recognizes the Christian religion and requires Muslims to respect it. The more ultra Orthodox schools of Judaism, such as the Lubbavitchers, consider Christians to be idolators who should be put to death for celebrating Christmas.
From the "Campaign to Abolish Christmas"
"…according to the known Jewish ruling that Christians are idol worshippers." (Likkutei Sichos 37:198)
A gentile…is liable for the death penalty…if he has invented a religious holiday for himself…The general principle is we do not allow them to make new religious rituals and to make 'mitzvahs' for themselves by their own devices. Rather they may either become a Ger Tzeddek and accept all the Mitvahs; or he (the Noahide) should stand fast in his Torah (the seven Noahide Laws) without adding or diminishing…and if he does make some new 'mitzvah,' we lash him, punish him, and inform him that he is obligated with the death penalty for this…" (Rambam Mishne Torah—Hilchos Melachim 10:9)
http://www.noahide.com/infiltration/xmas.htm
Posted by Sean2009 | December 19, 2009, 5:30 pm"Islam recognizes the Christian religion and requires Muslims to respect it. The more ultra Orthodox schools of Judaism, such as the Lubbavitchers, consider Christians to be idolators who should be put to death for celebrating Christmas."
How many Christians have been killed by fundamentalist Jews in the last 25 years? Even the last 100. Do you have a number?
Meanwhile, fundamentalist Wahhabi Muslims target them on a regular basis.
"8 Christians burned alive in Pakistan"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/…
"Christians hacked to death in Turkey"
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/christ…
"Car bomb hits Baghdad church"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8146922.stm
"Lebanese Christian leader assassinated"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6169606.stm
Obviously, these Wahhabi fanatics have murdered even MORE innocent Muslims, but its ridiculous to imply that Jewish fundamentalism is most hostile towards Christianity.
Posted by C.H. | December 19, 2009, 7:52 pmGood reply, CH
It's the fact that Christians are being persecuted everywhere in the Muslim world just for being Christians while at the same time this (Muslim) woman writes a poem which attempts to leverage a Christian holiday to make Christians feel guilty towards Muslims that really pisses me off. If she wants to write a religiously themed poem maybe she should write one about Islam and about how it is wrong for Muslims to be mistreating Christians, since that's happening even in Palestine, and she is a Palestinian Muslim. But that wouldn't serve her agenda, would it?
Posted by programmer craig | December 19, 2009, 9:13 pmA handful of anecdotes do not prove widespread Muslim persecution of Christians. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, and millions of Christians live among them. Similarly, millions of Muslims live among Christians. The number of Muslims killed by Christians and Jews in the last century vastly exceeds by degrees of magnitude the number of Christians or Jews killed by Muslims. You are obviously practicing the usual hasbara tactic of diverting attention from anything embarrassing to Zionism by demonizing Muslims. What does any of this have to do with Orthodox Jews calling for the murder of Christians for celebrating Christmas?
As for Jewish murders of Christians, the number may be in the tens of millions. Most of Stalin's key henchmen in the Politburo Like Zinoviev and Kamenev and many of the top leadership of the state security apparatus under Stalin and the early Bolsheviks were Jews. Jews like Genrikh Yagoda, and Lazar and Mikhail Kaganovich gave the orders that led to the deaths of millions of Christians. Zinoviev once called for the execution or exile of 90 million Russians.
Stalin's Jews
We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999…
Posted by Sean2009 | December 19, 2009, 11:38 pmA handful of anecdotes, Sean? Now you are dismissing the widespread persecution of Christians in Muslim countries? Could you possibly sink any lower?
The number of Muslims killed by Christians and Jews in the last century vastly exceeds by degrees of magnitude the number of Christians or Jews killed by Muslims.
That's an obvious lie, Sean. The Armenian genocide alone totals more Christians killed by Muslims than Muslims who have been killed by Christians in all cases combined the last 100 years. And I noticed you forgot to include the criteria that killings have to be religiously motivated to be considered persecution. But it doesn't matter, because even if we dispense with that your argument doesn't hold water. The only case I am aware of Christians persecuting Muslims just because they were Muslim in the last 100 years is in the Balkans. That's one case, compared to hundreds in the Muslim world.
Since you can find this stuff out easily enough on your own without my assistance, i assume your willingness to turn a blind eye is you choosing to be obtuse because it makes your ideology more palatable (to you).
So what is your input on this discussion anyway? A Palestinian Muslim woman writes a poem about Christmas in which she tries to make Christians feel guilty about the plight of Palestinians, while ignoring the fact that the biggest victimizer of Palestinian Christians is Palestinian Muslims? She doesn't feel at all guilty about the way her people treat Christians in teh ME, but she feels the need to try to make Western Christians who have nothing to do with the problem feel guilty about what Israeli Jews do to Palestinians. And you are down with that, correct?
Posted by programmer craig | December 20, 2009, 12:01 amA handful of anecdotes, Sean? Now you are dismissing the widespread persecution of Christians in Muslim countries? Could you possibly sink any lower?
We are talking about Palestine and yes, I dismiss the idea that Christians are persecuted in Palestine by their fellow Muslim Palestinians. A handful of violent incidents between religious or ethnic groups is inevitable in any society, as someone who claims to have grown up among the Irish and Italians in Yonkers should know.The primary source of persecution for Palestinian Christians, according to Palestinian Christians themselves, is the Israeli occupation. Who do I believe, them, or some neocon whack job or whatever Uncle Tom they serve up as representative of Arab Christians?
That's an obvious lie, Sean. The Armenian genocide alone totals more Christians killed by Muslims than Muslims who have been killed by Christians in all cases combined the last 100 years. And I noticed you forgot to include the criteria that killings have to be religiously motivated to be considered persecution. But it doesn't matter, because even if we dispense with that your argument doesn't hold water. The only case I am aware of Christians persecuting Muslims just because they were Muslim in the last 100 years is in the Balkans. That's one case, compared to hundreds in the Muslim world.
I didn't say anything about persecution, but the idea that killings have to be religiously motivated to be considered persecution is daft. The Nazi genoicde of the Jews was not religiously motivated, but racially and politically motivated. Can you seriously claiming the Jews weren't persecuted by the Nazis?
The Iraq war and the previous sanctions alone killed more Muslims than Christians who died in the Armenian genocide. The Algerian war, Israel's atrocities and the partition of India killed millions more. Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions of Muslims, and for the ethnic cleansing of entire populations of Muslim peoples, such as the Chechens.
So what is your input on this discussion anyway? A Palestinian Muslim woman writes a poem about Christmas in which she tries to make Christians feel guilty about the plight of Palestinians, while ignoring the fact that the biggest victimizer of Palestinian Christians is Palestinian Muslims? She doesn't feel at all guilty about the way her people treat Christians in teh ME, but she feels the need to try to make Western Christians who have nothing to do with the problem feel guilty about what Israeli Jews do to Palestinians. And you are down with that, correct?
Again, that's a flat out lie. Western Christians have everything to do with the problem because many of them support Israel's brutalization of the Palestinian people and theft of their land and resources.
Posted by Sean2009 | December 21, 2009, 12:38 am<i<We are talking about Palestine and yes, I dismiss the idea that Christians are persecuted in Palestine by their fellow Muslim Palestinians.
On what basis do you "dismiss" that? Palestinian Christians are somewhat unique in that they have a common enemy with Palestinian Muslims, but that doesn't seem to protect them from persecution at the hands of their Muslim brethren. It just means they complain about it less. But, they DO complain about it, Sean. And, it is pretty bad. Do a Google search and i think you'd agree with me the incidents being reported are pretty egregious. If something like that happened in the US or any other place in the western world it would be all over the news, for months. And you know it.
…as someone who claims to have grown up among the Irish and Italians in Yonkers should know.
Claims? lol. Yes, we used to have race riots with some regularity. The only times the Italians would side with the irish was against the blacks. The rest of the time it was the Irish and the Italians going at it. And the Puerto Ricans seemed to flip a coin to decide which side they'd be on. But it's not the same thing, Sean. It's not the same thing at all.
The primary source of persecution for Palestinian Christians, according to Palestinian Christians themselves, is the Israeli occupation.
And what else could they say, buddy? Iraqi Christians have been victimized beyond belief the last several years but they've been very quiet about it. You don't seem to understand the difference between a society in which victims of hate crimes can voice their grievances and get support from the system and a society in which any minorities who complain just expose themselves to being victimized further, including being victimized by the people are supposedly responsible for protecting them.
Who do I believe, them, or some neocon whack job or whatever Uncle Tom they serve up as representative of Arab Christians?
I don't care who or what you believe, Sean. If you want to pretend that Arabs in the ME or Muslims in general are on the same level when it comes to tolerance and respect for religious and ethnic minorities as people in other regions even though it's pretty obvious they aren't, that's entirely up to you. Also, if you want to pretend that Palestinians are more advanced on these issues than other Muslims even though the evidence doesn't support that just because you want to feel comfortable that Palestinians hold the moral high ground on all issues, again… that is up to you.
I didn't say anything about persecution, but the idea that killings have to be religiously motivated to be considered persecution is daft.
Way to parse words. OK, so lets just say a crime has to be motivated by bigotry, then? Happy now?
The Nazi genoicde of the Jews was not religiously motivated, but racially and politically motivated.
Really? So Jews were the same religion as Nazis then? Talk about daft!
Can you seriously claiming the Jews weren't persecuted by the Nazis?
Well, that's a good point! Don't you agree it would be absurd for a German to write a poem about Hanukkah which tried to make Jews feel guilty? Considering the history? And is it not equally absurd for a Muslim to write a poem about Christmas, trying to make Christians feel guilty?
The Iraq war and the previous sanctions alone killed more Muslims than Christians who died in the Armenian genocide.
You don't get to count sanctions. As for the war, only 85,000 Iraqis died in the war and the majority of them were killed by other Muslims. So that's a non-starter. good effort, though! But not really.
The Algerian war, Israel's atrocities and the partition of India killed millions more.
What the fuck is that all about? Partition of India? You are taking indirect causes to a whole new level with that, Sean. Do we get to guess how many muslims and hindus would have died in India if it had not been partitioned?
As for Israeli atrocities, dude… you don't even know how many Palestinians have died in the Arab-Israeli conflict do you? You might wanna look into it. So that you don't sound like an idiot. In case you don't like sounding like an idiot. You might be surprised how small the numbers are.
Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions of Muslims, and for the ethnic cleansing of entire populations of Muslim peoples, such as the Chechens.
Stalin was an atheist, Sean. You don't get to use him as evidence against Christians.
Again, that's a flat out lie. Western Christians have everything to do with the problem because many of them support Israel's brutalization of the Palestinian people and theft of their land and resources.
We don't hold people responsible for their opinions, Sean. We don't have thought police. Yet. And good job on dictating what "right thinking" is, too. What would you do to people who didn't agree with your characterization of the Arab-Israeli conflict, friend?
Posted by programmer craig | December 21, 2009, 1:37 amI dismiss it on the basis that "persecution" involves the systemic,/i> abuse of an individual or group by another group. Not all acts of interethnic or intereligious violence qualify as "persecution." If that were the case, every time a Catholic killed a Protestant in America or vice versa it would be defined as "persecution" or a "hate crime" rather than just "murder." The Palestinian people as a whole, both Christian and Muslim, are systematically persecuted by Israel on the basis of their religion, ethnicity and identity. There is no such systemic persecution by Muslims against Christians in Palestine, though there have been incidents of abuse and murder between the two groups.
Claims? lol. Yes, we used to have race riots with some regularity. The only times the Italians would side with the irish was against the blacks. The rest of the time it was the Irish and the Italians going at it. And the Puerto Ricans seemed to flip a coin to decide which side they'd be on. But it's not the same thing, Sean. It's not the same thing at all.
This kind of violence erupts almost everywhere where there are groups that differ as to race, religion or nationality. It is the same. You are right that these incidents do not qualify as "persecution" in Yonkers, you are wrong in seeing similar incidents as evidence of systemic persecution elsewhere.
And what else could they say, buddy? Iraqi Christians have been victimized beyond belief the last several years but they've been very quiet about it.
Persecuted beyond belief? You're right, your necocon hasbara is beyond belief. The idea that Palestinian Christians have to somehow remain silent is laughable. They have no problem speaking out against the Israelis despiute the proven fact that has a tendency to leave you arrested or dead.
I didn't say anything about persecution, but the idea that killings have to be religiously motivated to be considered persecution is daft.
Way to parse words. OK, so lets just say a crime has to be motivated by bigotry, then? Happy now?
There was no parsing of words there. Persecution is systemic, and by your own admission, the interethnic violence in Yonkers doesn't qualify as persecution, though it was certainly motivated by bigotry and tribalism.
Really? So Jews were the same religion as Nazis then? Talk about daft!
Every schoolkid in America knows that the Nazis did not peresecute the Jews on the basis of their religion, but on their perceived status as a seperate race.
Well, that's a good point! Don't you agree it would be absurd for a German to write a poem about Hanukkah which tried to make Jews feel guilty? Considering the history? And is it not equally absurd for a Muslim to write a poem about Christmas, trying to make Christians feel guilty?
Are you seriously trying to compare the Palestinians to the Nazis? I would not regard it as inappropriate for a German to right a poem about Hannukah or any other religious festival. After all, you seem to be feel comfortable expressing your bigoted opinions about Muslims and offering them all kinds of unsolicited advice at a time when our country is killing hundreds of thousands of them. part 1
Posted by Sean2009 | December 21, 2009, 3:50 amNot all acts of interethnic or intereligious violence qualify as "persecution."
Sectarian violence does, though. And that's what we are talking about here. I'm going to snip the rest of what you wrote. When people are victimized on the basis of their religion, and they are not protected from that by their host society, that is persecution.
This kind of violence erupts almost everywhere where there are groups that differ as to race, religion or nationality. It is the same. You are right that these incidents do not qualify as "persecution" in Yonkers, you are wrong in seeing similar incidents as evidence of systemic persecution elsewhere.
Race riots are just eruptions of violent bigotry, Sean. It becomes persecution when the bigotry is condoned – whether formally or informally – by the host society.
They have no problem speaking out against the Israelis despiute the proven fact that has a tendency to leave you arrested or dead.
That's an idiotic thing to say, Sean. Speaking out against the Israelis is the safest course of action for a Palestinian. Not speaking out against the Israelis or worse, speaking out *against* Palestinian Resistance will get a Palestinian branded a collaborator. If you don't know what happens to collaborators in the occupied territories maybe you should check out Google or YouTube. I'm seriously wondering how a pro-Palestinian activist can be so ignorant of realities on the ground?
Every schoolkid in America knows that the Nazis did not peresecute the Jews on the basis of their religion, but on their perceived status as a seperate race.
Maybe every C student in America knows that, Sean, but kids who get a decent education know that Hitler went after them in particular because of their religion. How many black Africans and Arabs in North Africa did Hitler send to the death camps? And yet, no stone was left unturned looking for Jews, in any territory the Germans occupied.
Are you seriously trying to compare the Palestinians to the Nazis?
I wasn't, no, but the Palestinians did side with the Nazis…
I would not regard it as inappropriate for a German to right a poem about Hannukah or any other religious festival.
You didn't address the question I asked. You missed the "with intent to make them feel guilty" part.
After all, you seem to be feel comfortable expressing your bigoted opinions about Muslims and offering them all kinds of unsolicited advice…
Pretty sure Hanitizer was soliciting my input when he published this poem. If he doesn't want to hear my opinions of this type of treatment of my religion,m he is welcome to leave my religion alone. I'm pretty sure I made that request the first time he tried to exploit Christmas for his anti-Israel agenda with the Santa Clause post.
And thanks for characterizing my opinions as "bigoted" too. I defend my religion from bigotry and you call my defense bigotry. It doesn't get much better than that.
… at a time when our country is killing hundreds of thousands of them.
Again with the bullshit numbers. Why don't you just say "eleventy-billion" or something?
Posted by programmer craig | December 21, 2009, 12:14 pmHow difficult is it for you to understand that whole societies are not responsible for the actions of individuals? This is why persecution has to be "systemic." Otherwise, every nut with a grudge becomes evidence of "persecution." You have provided no evidence for systemic persecution of Christians by Palestinian Mulsims, or of indifference to crims against them by the governmetn.
I'd say there's plenty of informal support for bigotry in America from all sides, and plenty of formal support when it comes to Muslims. I see no evidence of such amongst the Palestinians to any significant degree.
That's an idiotic thing to say, Sean. Speaking out against the Israelis is the safest course of action for a Palestinian. Not speaking out against the Israelis or worse, speaking out *against* Palestinian Resistance will get a Palestinian branded a collaborator. If you don't know what happens to collaborators in the occupied territories maybe you should check out Google or YouTube. I'm seriously wondering how a pro-Palestinian activist can be so ignorant of realities on the ground?
You really need to become informed before spouting off, Craig. It gets tiresome having to constantly school you. Palestinians are routinely shot dead, savagely beaten, or arrested for participating in peaceful protests. Palestian moderates have been arrested and imprisoned without charge, and others have been killed in targeted assassinations.
Every schoolkid in America knows that the Nazis did not peresecute the Jews on the basis of their religion, but on their perceived status as a seperate race.
Maybe every C student in America knows that, Sean, but kids who get a decent education know that Hitler went after them in particular because of their religion. How many black Africans and Arabs in North Africa did Hitler send to the death camps? And yet, no stone was left unturned looking for Jews, in any territory the Germans occupied.
Nazi policies towards the Jews were not based on religion, In previous persecutions of the Jews, the Jews could escape by converting to Christianity. The Nazis used a racial, not religious, determination of who was a Jew based on that person's grandparents, and there was no way out for anyone deemed a Jew.
The racial policy of Nazi Germany is the set of policies and laws implemented by Nazi Germany, asserting the superiority of the "Aryan race," and based on a specific racist doctrine which claimed scientific legitimacy. It was combined with a eugenics programme that aimed to achieve "racial purity" of the "Aryan race" by using compulsory sterilizations and extermination of the Untermensch (or "sub-humans"), which eventually culminated in the Holocaust. These policies targeted, first of all, Jews, who were considered as the most "inferior race" of all on a hierarchy that included Jews at the bottom and the Herrenvolk (or "master race") of the Volksgemeinschaft (or "national community") at the top.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_policy_of_Naz…
Are you seriously trying to compare the Palestinians to the Nazis?
I wasn't, no, but the Palestinians did side with the Nazis…
Here we go with this bullshit again. ONE Palestinian sided with the Nazis. Palestine was the only country in the world that did not have an active Nazi party. It had an Arab communist party that even supported the state of Israel, but no Nazi party.
After all, you seem to be feel comfortable expressing your bigoted opinions about Muslims and offering them all kinds of unsolicited advice…
Pretty sure Hanitizer was soliciting my input when he published this poem. If he doesn't want to hear my opinions of this type of treatment of my religion,m he is welcome to leave my religion alone. I'm pretty sure I made that request the first time he tried to exploit Christmas for his anti-Israel agenda with the Santa Clause post.
Somehow, I doubt the posting was directed at you.
And thanks for characterizing my opinions as "bigoted" too. I defend my religion from bigotry and you call my defense bigotry. It doesn't get much better than that.
I call your opinions bigoted because of the Islamophobic racist bullshit you spew here and your denial of the humanity of the Palestinians and Arabs. You act as if they're all animals.
… at a time when our country is killing hundreds of thousands of them.
Again with the bullshit numbers. Why don't you just say "eleventy-billion" or something?
Numerous prestigious, independent organizations including the lancet have been consistent in reporting estimates of over 1 million Iraqi deaths. Only the US government and elements of the US media cite the lower number you posted. Given their uninhibitted and wholehearted support of the war, they are hardly a credible source.
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq
Posted by Sean2009 | December 21, 2009, 10:29 pmHow difficult is it for you to understand that whole societies are not responsible for the actions of individuals? This is why persecution has to be "systemic."
And how difficult is it for you to understand what "systematic" means? If a Christian woman has been involuntarily divorced from her Christian husband and then involuntarily married to a Muslim man, is that systematic? Is that persecution? How can something like that even happen, Sean, without the support of both the Islamic clergy and the government?
I'm getting a bit tired of you using ignorance as a debating tactic, Sean. I'm supposed to be arguing with you, and instead I feel like I'm educating you. I'm not the activist in this discussion. Aren't activists supposed to be well informed?
You have provided no evidence for systemic persecution of Christians by Palestinian Mulsims, or of indifference to crims against them by the governmetn.
I didn't feel it was necessary. You seem to know how to use Google. Am I wrong about that? I figured if you did the research yourself you'd be more accepting of the results. If I throw up some links you'll just call them "a handful of anecdotes" as you already did with CH.
But if you really need help with that let me know! her's one to start you off, from a Muslim journalist:
http://barnabasfund.org/US/News/Archives/Palestin…
"Let us be honest with ourselves and courageously say out loud that Palestinian Christians are taking many severe blows, yet are suffering in silence so as not to attract attention. I do not refer here to the suffering caused by the occupation… but to actions of the past 20 years at least – that is, since the beginning of the occupation in 1967 – involving the confiscation of Christian property, especially in Bethlehem, Ramallah, and Al-Birah.
"What makes things worse is that those who are plundering [the Christians`] property are either powerful [in their own right] or are backed by various elements, among them high-ranking military officials or influential members of large clans.
"Attempts by the political leadership to partially rectify this situation have failed. Nor has the judiciary system been able to [resolve] many of the problems, which we still face today. Over the past few years, several of my Christian friends have told me of the harm they have suffered, including various threats, even death threats, for trying to gain access to their lands after they were taken over by influential Bethlehem residents.
"Furthermore, there has been an attempt to marginalize Christian culture in Palestine, even though it is rich and deeply rooted [there]. This began with [accusations] of unbelief [against Christians] – a move that ultimately harmed Palestinian society as a whole…
If you need more examples I suggest you try word combos such as "persecution of Christians in Palestine". Without the quotes.
I see no evidence of such amongst the Palestinians to any significant degree.
Yes. That's "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" syndrome at work.
You really need to become informed before spouting off, Craig. It gets tiresome having to constantly school you.
So I take it you didn't bother following my advice to find out what happens to Palestinian "collaborators" either, right? Talk about tiresome…
Palestinians are routinely shot dead, savagely beaten, or arrested for participating in peaceful protests. Palestian moderates have been arrested and imprisoned without charge, and others have been killed in targeted assassinations.
So we are back to the Jews. How convenient. Every possible misconduct on the part of Palestinians is excused by changing the subject to Israel.
Posted by programmer craig | December 21, 2009, 11:14 pmcont…
Nazi policies towards the Jews were not based on religion, In previous persecutions of the Jews, the Jews could escape by converting to Christianity. The Nazis used a racial, not religious, determination of who was a Jew based on that person's grandparents, and there was no way out for anyone deemed a Jew.
You are just being obtuse now, Sean.
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/recruited.html
A picture taken in 1943 of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini reviewing Bosnian-Muslim troops – a unit of the "Hanjar (Saber) Division" of the Waffen SS which he personally recruited for Hitler.
Why was that Palestinian there reviewing Hitler's SS troops, instead of waiting his turn in Auschwitz? Are you trying to claim that Palestinians are closer to Germans ethnically than Jews are or something? Or are you just playing the "ignorance" card again?
Here we go with this bullshit again. ONE Palestinian sided with the Nazis.
And that "one" was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Yassir Arafat's uncle, and the leader of Palestinian resistance in 1948. *shrug*
Palestine was the only country in the world that did not have an active Nazi party. It had an Arab communist party that even supported the state of Israel, but no Nazi party.
Oh, so now they didn't side with the Nazis? lol
Somehow, I doubt the posting was directed at you.
No? Then who was it directed at? There are a lot of other Western Christians reading this blog? And he wanted their input, but not mine?
I call your opinions bigoted because of the Islamophobic racist bullshit you spew here and your denial of the humanity of the Palestinians and Arabs. You act as if they're all animals.
And how do you act towards Israelis, Sean? Or conservative Americans, for that matter? I assure you I treat Palestinians and Arabs in general with more dignity and respect than you do with Israelis and Jews, so if I'm a bigot what does that make you? A ticking time-bomb?
Numerous prestigious, independent organizations including the lancet have been consistent in reporting estimates of over 1 million Iraqi deaths.
No, only lancet reported numbers that high. And lancet has been exposed as a fraud, many times. And yet, you still use their numbers to the exclusion of all else. To the point that you seem to have been unaware that the government of Iraq has some real data now, and is no longer using estimates.
Only the US government and elements of the US media cite the lower number you posted. Given their uninhibitted and wholehearted support of the war, they are hardly a credible source.
What part of "government of Iraq" did you not understand, Sean?
Posted by programmer craig | December 21, 2009, 11:14 pmYou are just being obtuse now, Sean.
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/recruited.html
A picture taken in 1943 of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini reviewing Bosnian-Muslim troops – a unit of the "Hanjar (Saber) Division" of the Waffen SS which he personally recruited for Hitler.
I have refuted this bullshit what, 5 times already? Right here on kbf. For the last time, the Mufit did NOT represent the Palestinian people when he met Hitler, and there is NO evidence of an alliance between the Nazis and the Palestinians, or even that the Muft was in any way involved in the Holocaust. None. He was not "Yasser Arafat's Uncle." Though they share a similar name, The Mufti was from a completley different clan than Arafat.
Arafat's original full name was Mohammed Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini. Mohammed Abdel Rahman was his first name; Abdel Raouf was his father's name and Arafat his grandfather's. Al-Qudwa was the name of his tribe and al-Husseini was that of the clan to which the al-Qudwas belonged. It should be noted that Arafat's clan, al-Husseini was based in Gaza and should not be confused with the well-known, but unrelated, al-Husayni clan of Jerusalem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat
The Mufti was never elected by the Palestinian people, but was appointed by the British. During the Arab Revolt of 1936, Husseini attempted to seize total power over the Palestinian resistance by assassinating nearly all Palestinian leaders who didn't accept his leadership unsonditonally. As a result of his actions he was widely perceived to have caused the failure of the Arab Revolt by Palestinians and was widely destested. When he met with Hilter, he did so as an individual with little backing from anyone in Palestine.
Since then, however, "the mufti" has become one of the major assets of pro-Israel propaganda. The argument was and is as follows: The Arabs do not accept the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, therefore they are anti-Semites who want to annihilate all the Jews and to accomplish the Nazi program—the best example being the mufti's alliance with Nazi Germany. This social construction of reality ignores not only the complexity and the fundamentally different basis of the Israeli-Arab conflict but also some inconvenient historical facts. One such fact is that while assisting the Nazis, the mufti lost almost all his influence over the Palestinian Arabs, which he never regained. Another is that during the 1930s and '40s Palestine was the only country in the region (and perhaps in the whole world) where no Nazi party or organization was established. During the 1930s, some Arab, as well as some Jewish, leaders expressed admiration for fascist regimes, but this was before the racist bases of these regimes became clear. It was only much later that Arabs borrowed anti-Semitic literature and motifs from the Europeans and used them in their propaganda.
http://www.nimn.org/Perspectives/israeli_voices/0…
So the idea the Palestinian are somehow collectively responsible for this man's actions is pure racist fiction. Do you hold the Jews responsible for the alliance of the leaders of the Irgun with Mussolini and the attempted alliance with Hilter by the leaders of the Stern Gang?The leader of the Irgun, Menachem Begin, and one of the leaders of the Stern gang, Yitzhak Rabin, were both later elected PM of Israel. Does this mean Jews approved of their past dealings with enemies of the Jewish people?
The principles of the alliance as proposed in LEHI's document submitted to Hentig were to be LEHI's unconditional acceptance of the Nazi "New Order" in Europe, together with "a state of the Jews to be established on nationalist and totalitarian foundations and tied to the German Reich." The state was to be established "within its historic boundaries." Yair considered it impolitic to explain to Hitler in full geographical detail exactly how those "boundaries" were envisaged. In the event the Nazis accepted the offer, "LEHI would join the war, fighting on the side of Germany, provided the latter would recognize the aims of the Israeli Liberation Movement." The "state of the Jews" would commit itself to being "allied with the German Reich." The alliance, as the document carefully explained, "would be our answer to a recent speech of the Chancellor of the German Reich, in which Mr. Hitler expressed his readiness to rely on any conceivable coalition and configuration of forces promoting isolation of Britain and thereby contributing to its ultimate defeat." Heller adds that subsequent LEHI proposals forwarded to Hentig and listed by him in his own memorandum, "without hesitation suggested a cooperation [with the Nazis] in military, political and intelligence domains within Palestine, and after suitable organizational preparations, also outside Palestine."
Oh, so now they didn't side with the Nazis? lol
No, they didn't. Start learning to think for yourself instead of regurgitating racist Ziofascist propaganda aimed at bubbleheads.
Posted by Sean2009 | December 23, 2009, 3:11 ampart 2
You don't get to count sanctions. As for the war, only 85,000 Iraqis died in the war and the majority of them were killed by other Muslims. So that's a non-starter. good effort, though! But not really.
We are talking about the killing of Muslims. Muslims killed by sanctions are just as dead as Muslims killed by other means. The figure you cite is a lowball, US government estimate for the Iraq war. Other estimates put the figure as high as 1.5 million.
What the fuck is that all about? Partition of India? You are taking indirect causes to a whole new level with that, Sean. Do we get to guess how many muslims and hindus would have died in India if it had not been partitioned?
The British were warned by Gandhi and others what would happend if partition occurred. The ensuing violence was predictable, just as with the partitioning of Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia and the planned partitioning of Iraq. The people who engineered that disaster are responsible for it.
As for Israeli atrocities, dude… you don't even know how many Palestinians have died in the Arab-Israeli conflict do you? You might wanna look into it. So that you don't sound like an idiot. In case you don't like sounding like an idiot. You might be surprised how small the numbers are.
In this case, I was not talking about Palestine alone, though the numbers are pretty high even there. The estimates I have seen are 200,000 Arabs in all of Israel's wars, ethnic cleansing, and the daily brutality of the occupations in Palestine and Lebanon, though it is difficult for me to find a cite just now.
Stalin was an atheist, Sean. You don't get to use him as evidence against Christians.
The people who carried out his crimes were overwhelmingly Christians and Jews.
We don't hold people responsible for their opinions, Sean. We don't have thought police. Yet. And good job on dictating what "right thinking" is, too. What would you do to people who didn't agree with your characterization of the Arab-Israeli conflict, friend?
Yeah, right. That's why so many people have their careers destroyed for criticizing Israel, which has now been elevated to the status of a hate crime by recent legislation. People should be free to express their opinions without fear of reprisal, but people are morally responsible for the policians and policies they support.
Posted by Sean2009 | December 21, 2009, 3:50 amWe are talking about the killing of Muslims. Muslims killed by sanctions are just as dead as Muslims killed by other means.
You are wasting my time…
The figure you cite is a lowball, US government estimate for the Iraq war. Other estimates put the figure as high as 1.5 million.
No, Sean. That number is the official count, released about 6 months ago by the Iraq government. It's the only number that's ever been released that isn't an estimate. It's the real number.
Can you explain how you didn't even know that? What business do you have throwing number around when you are years out of date?
The British were warned by Gandhi and others what would happend if partition occurred. The ensuing violence was predictable, just as with the partitioning of Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia and the planned partitioning of Iraq. The people who engineered that disaster are responsible for it.
Wasting my time again…
In this case, I was not talking about Palestine alone, though the numbers are pretty high even there. The estimates I have seen are 200,000 Arabs in all of Israel's wars, ethnic cleansing, and the daily brutality of the occupations in Palestine and Lebanon, though it is difficult for me to find a cite just now.
It's difficult for you to find a "cite" because it's a bullshit number that nobody wants to try to justify. What's your deal with disregarding actual data in favor of wild-ass guesses, Sean? Especially when you're the one who introduced the claim in the first place. That might work with like-minded individuals who will accept whatever number you throw their way without question, but it isn't going to work with the opposition.
The people who carried out his crimes were overwhelmingly Christians and Jews.
The communists? Christians and Jews? Are you aware that Communism is an atheist ideology? They used to kill people who got caught practicing Christianity or Judaism.
Yeah, right. That's why so many people have their careers destroyed for criticizing Israel, which has now been elevated to the status of a hate crime by recent legislation.
Back that claim up, please. Or retract it.
…but people are morally responsible for the policians and policies they support.
But not if they support terrorism, right Sean? Then they get to play moral-equivalency games and accuse the US and Israel of being the real terrorists, and so on and so forth. I think you and I have had this discussion before…
Posted by programmer craig | December 21, 2009, 12:28 pmYou are just using this as yet another attempt to vent your hatred of Muslims.
Sean, there is no mistaking the malicious intent behind this poem. Yet, you have somehow mistaken it… for "celebration", no less
Posted by programmer craig | December 19, 2009, 9:03 pmI see no evidence of "malicious intent" in this poem. Indeed, it is merely a call for Christians to recognize the tragedy faced by Palestinian Christians and their Muslim brothers. It calls for harm to no one.
Interesting, though, that you fail to observe any maliciousness in the fact Jewish law calls for Christians who fail to abide by the Noahide Laws by celebrating Christmas to be executed by beheading.
Posted by Sean2009 | December 19, 2009, 11:43 pmI see no evidence of "malicious intent" in this poem. Indeed, it is merely a call for Christians to recognize the tragedy faced by Palestinian Christians and their Muslim brothers.
She shit on Christmas. She shit on Christians. That's malicious.
It calls for harm to no one.
In fact, like all bigotry, it directly does the harm in and of itself.
Interesting, though, that you fail to observe any maliciousness in the fact Jewish law calls for Christians who fail to abide by the Noahide Laws by celebrating Christmas to be executed by beheading.
No, what's interesting is that after Hanitizer tries to bring Christianity into a conflict that doesn't involve Christians, your best defense is to say the Jews do it too. Is this a Jewish blog? Is this an Israeli blog? No? Then how about y'all take some ownership of your own bullshit and not response to criticism by going with the old "they do it too!" routine?
Posted by programmer craig | December 20, 2009, 12:07 amShe shit on Christmas. She shit on Christians. That's malicious.
She didn't "shit on Christmas." You're being hysterical.
In fact, like all bigotry, it directly does the harm in and of itself.
There is no bigotry at all in her poem. It does not in any way demonize or cast hate against Christians but instead acknowledges and expresses confidence in the good nature of Christians by appealing to that very nature.
Interesting, though, that you fail to observe any maliciousness in the fact Jewish law calls for Christians who fail to abide by the Noahide Laws by celebrating Christmas to be executed by beheading.
No, what's interesting is that after Hanitizer tries to bring Christianity into a conflict that doesn't involve Christians, your best defense is to say the Jews do it too. Is this a Jewish blog? Is this an Israeli blog? No? Then how about y'all take some ownership of your own bullshit and not response to criticism by going with the old "they do it too!" routine?
Don't come at me with that "they do it too" bullshit. You are getting your panties twisted into a knot over a poem, yet are completley incapable of acknowledging anything wrong with Jews whose religion requires them to kill Christians for practicing their faith, even though the Palestinian Christians you claim to care so much about live under the guns of these very same extremist, Orthodox Jews. That shows me your alleged concern is as shallow as your arguments are, because if you really cared about people "shitting on Christmas," as you put it, then you wouldn't be going into hysterics trying to invent excuses why I shouldn't illustrate the mindset of Palestinian Christians' chief persecutors, now would you?
You're full of shit Craig, and as always, it has been a waste of my time pointing out your hypocrisy.
Posted by Sean2009 | December 21, 2009, 12:49 amShe didn't "shit on Christmas." You're being hysterical.
Whatever.
There is no bigotry at all in her poem. It does not in any way demonize or cast hate against Christians but instead acknowledges and expresses confidence in the good nature of Christians by appealing to that very nature.
Whatever.
Don't come at me with that "they do it too" bullshit. You are getting your panties twisted into a knot over a poem, yet are completley incapable of acknowledging anything wrong with Jews whose religion requires them to kill Christians for practicing their faith…
I don't give a damn what their religion "requires" them to do, Sean. Let me know when they start actually doing it. Then you may have a point worthy of discussion. Muslims persecuting Christians is happening in the real world, and you come back at me with your interpretation of Jewish scripture which as far as i can tell has not ever been practiced anywhere on the planet and you think you are on to something? You think that's a valid counter-argument?
That shows me your alleged concern is as shallow as your arguments are, because if you really cared about people "shitting on Christmas," as you put it, then you wouldn't be going into hysterics trying to invent excuses why I shouldn't illustrate the mindset of Palestinian Christians' chief persecutors, now would you?
On one side of the argument we have actual religious persecution. On the other, we have "mindset". Who loses this argument, Sean? :p
You're full of shit Craig, and as always, it has been a waste of my time pointing out your hypocrisy.
Whatever. Tell your Palestinian Muslim friends to leave Christianity out of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and you won't have to listen to me expressing my opinions on the matter any more. Otherwise, maybe you should ignore me because I don't plan on shutting up about it when people try to use my own religion to manipulate me.
Posted by programmer craig | December 21, 2009, 1:50 amDon't come at me with that "they do it too" bullshit. You are getting your panties twisted into a knot over a poem, yet are completley incapable of acknowledging anything wrong with Jews whose religion requires them to kill Christians for practicing their faith…
I don't give a damn what their religion "requires" them to do, Sean. Let me know when they start actually doing it. Then you may have a point worthy of discussion. Muslims persecuting Christians is happening in the real world, and you come back at me with your interpretation of Jewish scripture which as far as i can tell has not ever been practiced anywhere on the planet and you think you are on to something? You think that's a valid counter-argument?
Except for Israel and the Soviet Union, the two places on Earth where Jews had the power to practice what they preach. In the Soviet Union, they systematically destroyed churches, murdered priests and killed millions of Soviet citizens. Where did this idea that Christianity had to be destroyed come from, I wonder?
Here, they have the power to get our government to do their killing for them in Iraq and soon Iran as well, no doubt.
That shows me your alleged concern is as shallow as your arguments are, because if you really cared about people "shitting on Christmas," as you put it, then you wouldn't be going into hysterics trying to invent excuses why I shouldn't illustrate the mindset of Palestinian Christians' chief persecutors, now would you?
On one side of the argument we have actual religious persecution. On the other, we have "mindset". Who loses this argument, Sean? :p
On one side we have neocon propaganda about persecutions of Palestinian Christians that do not exist, on the other we have the reality of 60 years of brutal military occupation, ethnic cleansing, massacres, mass arrests without trial, destruction and outright theft of private and piublic property, daily harassment and attacks against schoolkids, checkpoints, curfews and the herding of people into ethnic enclaves where their freedom of movement is restricted, and just general, daily harassment and abuse by Israeli soldiers and settlers that has been documented in videos, photos and the testimonials of Israeli, Palestinian and international human rights workers and even of Israeli soldiers and police.
But hey, if a single Palestinian Christian is killed by a Muslim for whatever reason, it is automatically persecution and trumps all that.
Posted by Sean2009 | December 21, 2009, 4:06 amSean,
You sound like an SS propaganda officer with this nonsense. Either that, or a neo-nazi hiding out in an Idaho Compound.
For the last time, the Soviet Union was an ATHEIST, communist entity that slaughtered anyone of faith who stood in the way of state authority. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that Stalin supported fundamentalist Judaism. To say otherwise is wrong…you have invented this vast Jewish conspiracy (which is really just a sub-level in the Universe of Deceit) to try and justify this grudge you have against Jews.
Jews don't "control" any aspect of the US government..the US government supports Israel because poll after poll shows that Americans all across the political spectrum and from every walk of life like, support, and sympathize with Israel. This is a government made by the people, for the people, Sean! If Americans embraced the hatred you do, the US government wouldn't have anything to do with Israel. That is the way DEMOCRACY works.
Posted by C.H. | December 21, 2009, 4:43 amFor the last time, the Soviet Union was an ATHEIST, communist entity that slaughtered anyone of faith who stood in the way of state authority. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that Stalin supported fundamentalist Judaism. To say otherwise is wrong…you have invented this vast Jewish conspiracy (which is really just a sub-level in the Universe of Deceit) to try and justify this grudge you have against Jews.
I never said that the Soviet Union or the Bolshevik Revolution was a Jewish conspiracy or controlled by Jews. Those are your words, not mine. Stalin was, in fact, a supporter of Zionism, and at one time proposed offering the Jews a Jewish homeland in territory that was to be carved out of Soviet controlled lands in the East. He is also at least partially responsible for the creation of the state of Israel, as it was Stalin, through his henchman Lavrentij Beria, who pressured the Czechs to supply the Haganah and other Jewish militias with surplus WWII German weapons and Czech copies of those weapons as well as some aircraft. These weapons gave the Jews fire superiority over the Arabs and were decisive in their victory in the 1948 war. In addition, Stalin had, along with the US, strong-armed a lot of smaller countries into supporting the UN partition plan that led to the state of Israel.
Jews don't "control" any aspect of the US government..the US government supports Israel because poll after poll shows that Americans all across the political spectrum and from every walk of life like, support, and sympathize with Israel. This is a government made by the people, for the people, Sean! If Americans embraced the hatred you do, the US government wouldn't have anything to do with Israel. That is the way DEMOCRACY works.
I never said Jews "control" the US, but Zionist groups do in fact have a tremendous influence over US government policy in the Mideast and an unprecedented access to political power in the US system. If Zionists controlled America, we would be at war with Iran and Syria already. It is difficult for an American politician who openly opposes Israel to be elected to national office in our country without being savaged by the lobby and its allies in the media. We went to war not because the American people voted for it. We did not. We went to war based on WMD lies that were created by the Israel lobby in the US and propagated to the people through an unquestioning and servile media. There is no question that it was pro-Israel neocons and the Israel lobby that pressured the US into the war, and are currently pushing us towards a war with Iran. Most American Jews opposed the Iraq war, so this is hardly a "Jewish conspiracy" or whatever else you might wish to call it.
The US ceased being a democracy a long time ago. We are now a corporate oligarchy that chooses our leaders from a list of corporate-approved candidates. If we were a democracy, then the wishes of the people would be respected and we would be out of Iraq and Afghanistan, we would have single-payer healthcare, and we sure as hell wouldn't be giving trillions of dollars to bankster thieves.
Posted by Sean2009 | December 21, 2009, 2:29 pm"Interesting, though, that you fail to observe any maliciousness in the fact Jewish law calls for Christians who fail to abide by the Noahide Laws by celebrating Christmas to be executed by beheading."
Yeah, that might be rooted in the fact that the beheading of Christians by fundamentalist Jews has NEVER happened, at least not in recent centuries. This Universe of Deceit that you operate in is astonishing!
If what you are saying about fundamentalist Jews is true, then I guess the Islamist fanatics chopping heads off across the ME are reading from the wrong book.
Posted by C.H. | December 21, 2009, 2:35 am"Interesting, though, that you fail to observe any maliciousness in the fact Jewish law calls for Christians who fail to abide by the Noahide Laws by celebrating Christmas to be executed by beheading."
Yeah, that might be rooted in the fact that the beheading of Christians by fundamentalist Jews has NEVER happened, at least not in recent centuries. This Universe of Deceit that you operate in is astonishing!
I never said it did. What i said, and gave indisputable evidence of, is that the religious teaching followed by Orthodox jews require that all those who do not follow the Noahide Laws should be put to death, which is something Christians who support Israel ought to consider. Being a minority, Orthodox Jews have rarely been in a position where they could get away with killing Christians for their religion as their religion dictates. The exception is the Soviet Union, where Bolshevik Jews systematically attempted to destroy Russian Christianity by destroying thousands of churches, killing thousands of priests, and enslaving and murdering millions of Soviet citizens of all religions and ethnicities. but particularly Russian Christians.
If what you are saying about fundamentalist Jews is true, then I guess the Islamist fanatics chopping heads off across the ME are reading from the wrong book.
You mean, fanatics like the ones who allegedly killed Nick Berg?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/SAT405A.htm…
Posted by Sean2009 | December 21, 2009, 4:16 am"The exception is the Soviet Union, where Bolshevik Jews systematically attempted to destroy Russian Christianity by destroying thousands of churches, killing thousands of priests, and enslaving and murdering millions of Soviet citizens of all religions and ethnicities. but particularly Russian Christians."
This of course, is complete and utter nonsense…your claims that Stalin's regime was based on Jewish fundamentalism sounds like something that would be featured on a Nazi propaganda video in 1939 Berlin, trying to show the world why the Jews are evil and explaining why they need to be done away with. Stalin was an atheist…his regime hated all religions and any form of faith that put itself above the state. Sure, some of his henchman might have been Jewish…just as some Shia managed to make it to the top of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party…but that does not mean that Judaism played a major role in Stalin's purges. Stalin slaughtered his people because he was a delusional, paranoid madman who saw himself as the highest authority…above all Gods. The Soviet Union claimed the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent Jews, in addition to millions of others.
Posted by C.H. | December 21, 2009, 4:29 amAs for your link, its very difficult to argue with you when you start up again with the flat-earth, hysterical conspiracy theories that make absolutely no sense. Anyone who was in the United States when Nick Berg was murdered knows that the beheading sickened the nation…and turned many Americans AGAINST the war and AGAINST the Bush Administration. In the Universe of Deceit, however, you guys seem to believe that the terrorist attacks and beheadings somehow have HELPED the war effort, when nothing could be further from the truth.
Posted by C.H. | December 21, 2009, 4:34 amCorey, you're right about Sean… I didn't realize how far gone he was until he started in on this thing with the USSR being some sort of Jewish-run empire.
Posted by programmer craig | December 21, 2009, 12:38 pmI never said any such thing, so stop putting words in my mouth. I never said Jews controlled the Soviet Union, but that they had an enormous amount of power within the Soviet system both after the revolution and during the Stalin era, and a disproportionate percentage of the top hierarchy and cadre in the state security apparatus that carried out Soviet atrocities were Jews.
Posted by Sean2009 | December 21, 2009, 2:11 pmThat doesn't give what you are trying to imply and credit whatsoever. I'll use another example.
Saddam Hussein's army was made up of a disproportionately high number of Shiite Muslims. Some of his top military officers were Shiites. In spite of all this, Saddam–who was paranoid and delusional, just like Stalin–saw Shiite Islam as a threat and invaded Iran. He also slaughtered hundreds of thousands of his own people and burned down the holy city of Karbala. In the grander scheme of things, Shia Islam did not fit into his idea of a pan-Arab society.
Also, Jews have risen to the top ranks of the Ku Klux Klan..are you going to find a way to say that this organization is a supporter of Zionism?
Posted by C.H. | December 21, 2009, 6:53 pmThat doesn't give what you are trying to imply and credit whatsoever. I'll use another example.
What exactly am I trying to imply?
Saddam Hussein's army was made up of a disproportionately high number of Shiite Muslims. Some of his top military officers were Shiites. In spite of all this, Saddam–who was paranoid and delusional, just like Stalin–saw Shiite Islam as a threat and invaded Iran. He also slaughtered hundreds of thousands of his own people and burned down the holy city of Karbala. In the grander scheme of things, Shia Islam did not fit into his idea of a pan-Arab society.
Also, Jews have risen to the top ranks of the Ku Klux Klan..are you going to find a way to say that this organization is a supporter of Zionism?
Let me give you another example. We know that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini was a collaborator with the Nazis. He is but one individual. There is no evidence he gave execution orders or actively participated in Nazi atrocities, but he did help raise two Bosnian Waffen SS units. To many Zionists, such as your friend Craig here, this is evidence that all Palestinians collaborated with the Nazis, that Palestinians backed the Final Solution, and that the Palestinians are as guilty of Nazi atrocities as the Germans are. I regard this view as patently absurd and Islamophobic, and do not believe that the Palestinians are collectively responsible for the actions of one man. I do accept that the Grand Mufti was probably an anti-Semite at least partially motivated by hatred of Jews in addition to Palestinian nationalism.
Similarly, the fact that such a disproportionate number of Jews served in the Soviet system at all levels of the state bureaucracy and particularly as active leaders and perpetrators of atrocities carried out by the state security services does not mean Jews are somehow collectively responsible for the crimes of the Soviet Union or that these crimes were supported by all Jews. I know you are trying to pin such a belief on me, but sorry, that doesn't represent my views. I would regard such a view as anti-Semitic. I no more believe in collective responsibility for Jews than I do for Palestinians. But the fact remains that individual Jews were enthusiastic collaborators with the mechanism of murder and oppression in the Soviet Union, and were largely used in the campaign to destroy Russian Christianity. Much as I accept the probabilty of el-Husseini's anti-Semitism, I also accept the probability that these Jews hated Christians, and it is possible that the anti-Christian hatred inherent to some strains of Judaism was a motivating factor for their participation in the crimes of the Soviet system. Stalin deliberately chose Jews and Siberians to command the Gulags, for exmple, as he wanted people who had a visceral hatred of Russians to run them.
Posted by Sean2009 | December 21, 2009, 11:55 pm"But the fact remains that individual Jews were enthusiastic collaborators with the mechanism of murder and oppression in the Soviet Union, and were largely used in the campaign to destroy Russian Christianity."
Jews were persecuted alongside Christians in Russia. Since you claim to know what you are talking about, I'm sure you have heard about the "Doctor's Plot" in the late 1940's, where Stalin accused Jewish doctors of working as American agents plotting his assassination and announced to the politburo that all "Jewish nationalists" should be treated as enemies. The Soviet Union razed down Synagogues and Yiddish schools just as it did with churches. As I keep trying to explain to you (and you blissfully shield your eyes) Stalin was an atheist…he didn't discriminate in killing his enemies because anyone who threatened him was fair game. His list encompasses people from all classes in society and numerous faiths.
Posted by C.H. | December 22, 2009, 3:47 amCH wrote:
<Quote text>
How many Christians have been killed by fundamentalist Jews in the last 25 years? Even the last 100. Do -you have a number?
I don't believe CH even asked this question! Lets refresh your memory. Perhaps you are two young to remember.
How about the Israeli attack on USS Liberty [June, 81967] where 34 U.S. Sailors get killed in cold blood and 172 injured. This was unprovoked attack.
Alex Odeh, A U.S citizen, a Christian of Palestinian origin get assasinated in Santa Ana, California by JDL members who fled to Israel. The FBI was not allowed to questions his killers, and Israel refused to extradiate the killers to fthe U.S. to face justice in an American court.
Several U.S. Marines will killed in a minefield explosion left behind the Israeli army fellowing their withdrawal from Beirut Airport in Lebanon – During 1982 Israeli invation into Lebanon.
I could site many more incidents, but for the sake of time, you get the picture. Perhaps that short list would answer CH's question.
Posted by Mahmoud El-Yousseph | December 20, 2009, 1:04 amIs that the best you can do? Seriously? I guess you inadvertently proved CH's point for him
Posted by programmer craig | December 20, 2009, 1:09 amWow, this is supposed to make me believe that fundamentalist Jews are the biggest threat to Christianity? None of these three examples you clobbered together can be traced to a Jewish-Christian conflict at all.
Fundamentalist Muslims bomb, massacre, and threaten religious minorities EVERY day…these three examples are from *at least* 25 years ago…and as I said, none of them have anything to do with Christianity and Judaism. Even if they did, its pretty pathetic that you read about the above mentioned acts of violence and assume that Jews are out to kill christians, but at the same time you believe that Islam is a friend to Christianity.
Posted by C.H. | December 20, 2009, 6:25 amMeanwhile, within a more recent time frame…
"Islamic extremists assassinate church leader in Somalia…thirteenth this year"
http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2009/s09110089….
"Seven Iraqi churches bombed in 48 hours"
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/seventh.chu…
"15 killed in attack on Pakistani church"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/15-k…
"Christian convert faces execution in Afghanistan"
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/LegalCenter/story?id=17…
"Seven Christians executed in Karachi"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1408231/Seven-Chr…
"5 dead in Philippines church bombing"
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeq…
Posted by C.H. | December 20, 2009, 6:40 amIs that so Mr. Craig!
Unless the life of those American means nothing to you!
They think those killing I sited were accident to be ignored?
You don't think those victims deserve justice?
Do you believe that terrorist is exclusively Muslim franchise?
Any chance, you have served in the military?
Sorry, I meant to say,the U.S. military!
Posted by Mahmoud El-Yousseph | December 20, 2009, 3:47 amLets see: You listed 2 "friendly fire" incidents, and 1 alleged assassination.
I think I could compile a bigger list of Americans who had been unjustly killed by the British. And to top it off, you didn't offer up any evidence that any of those 3 incidents was motivated by religious bigotry which is, after all, the topic of discussion.
And yes, I did serve in the US military.
Posted by programmer craig | December 20, 2009, 5:26 am