At Tampa town hall, Obama confirms that “peace” precludes Palestinian rights
Responding to an unexpected question about US funding for Israeli human rights violations at a town hall in Tampa yesterday, President Obama made a remark reminiscent of the last eight years and its frequent Bushisms.
On top of his tortured remark however (“The Middle East is an issue that has plagued the region for centuries.”), President Obama reminded us that the so-called peace process has become incompatible with Palestinian human rights. According to Obama, Palestinians must renounce violence, but not Israel, even though Israel is the country with a navy, air force, army, nuclear weapons, and an active intelligence apparatus, and even though Palestinians are the ones with an internationally recognized right to use violence against their occupier.
Joseph Massad’s analysis of this trend back to the Oslo Agreements could not have come at a more opportune time, given the way that Obama did not address Palestinian rights but instead responded to an un-asked question about the fantasy peace process, vividly demonstrating the dichotomy that has come to represent a new form of racism against the Palestinians.
It is thanks to this logic that Israel can charge that the Goldstone report, extensively documenting human rights violations, will cause “harm” to the peace process. Under the same pretext, the British government tries to prevent arrest warrants against accused Israeli leaders, because “Israel’s leaders need to be able to come to the UK for talks.” As if a peace process actually exists!
We cannot accept the notion that addressing the injustices against the Palestinians is an obstacle to this “elusive” peace, because it is precisely those injustices that stand in the way. Increasingly, the two-state solution espoused in words only by Israel, the State Department, and PLO Chairman Mahmoud Abbas looks like nothing more than another phase in perpetuating those injustices against most Palestinians, even if it helps create an elite VIP political class that can travel freely and make money under occupation.
To that extent the idea that every discussion about Palestinians must be centered on the chimera of “peace” aka Israel’s conception of the two state solution actually stands in the way of restoring to Palestinians their rights.
That the President can respond so audaciously and dishonestly with a recycled script practically written by the Israel lobby should dispel all fantasies that change on this issue will come from the top, or that they should even be aimed at the top. The Israel lobby will exist as long as Israeli apartheid does, so we cannot act as if the two issues are separate. All these claims only emphasize the need for more agitation and substantive organization at the grassroots level.
There are those who will act as apologists for the President, pointing to the Israel lobby, or to the fact that Florida is a swing state and the President is simply being realistic. That might be palatable, detriments to an honest and transparent political discourse aside, if there was actually something positive happening for Palestinians behind the scenes — but there isn’t.
the so-called peace process has become incompatible with Palestinian human rights
The peace process cannot bring human rights, only violence and death can bring human rights. Only by violating the Israeli human rights can the Palestinians truly have human rights.
Palestinians must renounce violence, but not Israel
We know Palestinians must renounce Israel, and use their right to violently resist their occupier. Violence is the Palestinian right and the peace process is a fantasy Anyone who opposes Palestinians and their rights are racist.
We definitely need more agitation and substantive organization to restore Palestinian rights, we need to bring the fight to them.
Suffice it to say you have mischaracterized my points. LIberation is fought to ensure the rights of all, not to turn the oppressive system upside down, so that the oppressed becomes the new oppressor.
What you suggest has been tried unsuccessfully already. Remember the Second Intifada? You were able to kill 1000 Israelis in buses, pubs, restaurants, hotels, discos etc. If that did not work for you, why do you think violence will work now?
As for shooting rockets, by all means, give it another try if you think it will be effective and are prepared to handle the Israeli response.
Every few years some Palestinians or Arabs suddenly come to the conclusion that violence is the solution disregarding completely the lessons of history.
Why not use a more productive way? Have you ever asked yourself why Obama supports Israel? If you come to the conclusion that it is because US and Israeli interests are aligned then you just have to wait patiently for this to change. If you think the US is acting against its interests, then your path is simply to convince people of this. It may take a long time, but if you are right, the truth will prevail eventually. But violence will only hamper your persuasion efforts.
I love the "you were able to kill 1000 Israelis" part! it was all Yaman personally, he orchestrated the whole thing because all Arabs know each other. It's all very well documented in the Protocols of the Elders of Mecca.
Can you please point out where I suggested that rejecting the "peace process" means blowing up buses, instead of, say, an internaitonal boycott movement?
You seem to confuse the ideal of peace with the very specific notion of "peace" and "peace process" that is articulated by Israel and the United States. It is not productive, except for the consolidation of Israeli power over the Palestinians.
I was not calling for violence in my post. I was calling out the hollowness of the kind of "peace" that Israel supports or desires, even as it bombs Gaza into oblivion and conducts arrests on to peaceful protest leaders in the West Bank. I find it ironic that the people who call on Palestinians not to use violence, are the same ones that champion and defend every use of violence by the Israeli military.
Can you please point out where I suggested that rejecting the "peace process" means blowing up buses, instead of, say, an internaitonal boycott movement?
Seems a bit silly to try to involve the "international community" in a nationalist movement. But whatever you think will work for ya! Maybe someday the "international community" will make the dreams of pan-Arab nationalists come true! You never know! Shame that pan-Arab nationalsist couldn't make that happen on their own, though. Kinda defeats the purpose of being a nationalist when you have to rely on foreigners to get things done for you.
I guess you must be going out of your way to support all the non-violent Palestinian protesters recently arrested by Israel. Here's what Jewish Voice is doing about it
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/articl...
'Only by violating the Israeli human rights can the Palestinians truly have human rights. '
How does that work? There is a difference between resistance, in its violent and peaceful means, and human rights violations. The former is what liberation movements strive to do. The latter is what invaders and colonizers build their enterprises on. Please be more wary of what you are saying.
this sounds to me like a troll deliberately trying to provoke people
al mabhouh was a Hamas official recently assassinated, so this is definitely a troll
Dude, tagging an act as "resistance" doesn't make it so. And given that Palestinian organizations have been so depraved as to tag bashing the head of a 4 year old with a rifle as "resistance" perhaps you might want to be more wary of what you yourself are saying.
It is obvious that Palestinian liberation must involve strategic suicide bombings and unsuspected, sudden attacks to bring fear into the hearts of the oppressor. This is what true liberation is built upon, not endless talking and begging. The oppressors really have no rights, as oppressors they must be massacred until they relent, which violates nothing.
oh go back to troll-land. We got the joke, we realize Al-mabhouh was assassinated last week ha ha. You're not convinving anyone with this joke, it's just boring,
Yaman should be sent to yemen to live with cows. he doesnt belong in the civilized world.
HIs poor whittle Israel crap makes me want to punch babies. Useless individual.
Don't blame it on babies…
The Palestinian womb is the weapons factory for resistance.
Yaman,
First, I was answering the call to violence in the comment before mine.
Second, I did not tell the Palestinians what strategy to use. It is their own decision. I just said that I believe that violence will not work.
Third, I think nothing will work. You are welcome to try BDS but it is very unlikely to be useful against Israel. The essence of the problem is the following. There are at least 2 Israeli companies in the NASDAQ 100 (that I remember off hand) – CHKP and TEVA. That means that any broad based mutual fund in the US must hold stock of these companies. How can you divest from investing in Israeli companies?
Furthermore, Intel, Google, Microsoft, Motorola, IBM etc. have important development centers in Israel. For example, the Israeli development center of Intel is responsible for most of its revenues. Israel is so integrated into corporate america and Wall Street, that the BDS of Israel will be unpleasant also for the US, and therefore very unlikely to happen. Plus, do you really believe that it will be a problem for Israel to circumnavigate BDS if it actually happens? There are staunch Zionists and Israelis all over the world and Israel will setup tons of corporations that nobody will know are connected to Israel and will trade through them. For example, say an Israeli writes a piece of software. Because of BDS he will ask his relative in the US to setup a US company and sell it all over the world. This is just one simple example.
I know the above will not stop you from trying. You should understand though that the Zionist Jews are part of an ultra resourceful and creative people with a worldwide network of connections and trade. You are banging your head against the wall. But then, this has always been the story of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The Arabs always underestimated Israel and constantly keep preaching about its very near demise.
very well written….
you have brought up an interesting angle to this 'resistance';
that i think every one here should really think hard and deep about.
jjj, either you are invested in the struggle against the occupation and other injustices Palestinans suffer, or you're not.
If you are, you could do something constructive to support it – like what Jewish Voice for Peace is doing, as I mentioned in the earlier comment. There are plenty of Israelis who also see themselves as allies in this struggle.
if you are not invested in this issue, and you're not interested in doing anything concrete to alleviate the injustice, why would anyone want to hear your advice about something that doesn't seem to concern you? don't assume you need to lecture about Israel or Zionism to other people on this thread, people are as knowledgeable as you.
BDS has two effects. One is the economic pressure. The other, and what I think is actually more important, is the threat BDS represents to Israel's legitimacy worldwide. What you suggest — that Israelis now divested will simply create an underground market that isn't visibly connected to Israel — cannot address the 'legitimacy' problem, which I think creates a bigger problem for Israel than any economic pressure created by BDS.
Tompe,
In my opinion, there is nothing constructive that could be done at this point. Again this is only my opinion, but I think eventually the Palestinians will have to accept a solution that they don't view as just. Like the Finns accepted the fact that 1/3 of their country was taken by Russia, the Germans have accepted that Alsace and Lorraine are French and the Jews of Poland accept that non of their vast pre WWII property will ever be returned.
Injustice is in the eye of the beholder. To me a solution in which a Palestinian is a citizen and has equal rights in the US is as just as a solution in which that Palestinian gets to return to his village. To me justice revolves around opportunities and not about specific pieces of real estate.
History does not tell us that peace is achieved when justice prevails. Peace is reached when people are tired of fighting or the cost of fighting is too high. We are not there yet but I think we are getting there.
"In my opinion, there is nothing constructive that could be done at this point"
I recently wrote a post on "privileged pessimism", when people feel so pessimistic that they (or they people they support) will unfortunately get to keep all their current privileges.
http://borderlinecrimes.com/2010/01/13/privileged...
"Injustice is in the eye of the beholder. "
and the same goes for being a relativist about other people's rights. What about the widespread discrimination Jews used to face in this country in universities, clubs and employment? what that unjust only if you happened to look at it from a Jewish perspective? or just plain wrong?
Everyday in the US people are compensated with money for wrongful death, for land taken for public works etc.
But only in the case of the Palestinians, that will not be considered justice. No, they have to return to their villages (which most have never seen) for justice, a monetary compensation will not do. As I said, injustice is in the eye of the beholder. There is no solution based on the "justice" you want.
a 20-year old friend of mine was born in Jerusalem but she is barred from residency and has a hard time entering it. The solution based on the justice I want is that she'll be allowed to live in her own hometown, even though she is an Arab. That actually is a solution, but maybe one you don't accept.
Your friend is a specific case whose specifics you do not divulge. Usually, if you have a Jerusalem residency card, you can live there.
The reason there is no peace is because of the literal interpretation Palestinians put on the right of return. They want to actually return to their villages from 48 and will not hear about being compensated in other ways. This is an all or nothing strategy that in my opinion will continue to backfire. Your view of justice is very extreme and contrary to norms of the US and many other countries.
In your opinion a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem is that Palestinians all be given US citizenship and some money?
Also, you believe this conflict has not been solved simply because Palestinians refuse to give up their right of return?
With such beliefs so far removed from reality, no wonder you can't envision the possibility of a solution being found. You sound a lot like the idiot in the video clip.
If you are implying I am as stupid as Obama, I will take that as a compliment.
Poll after poll has shown that there is a large majority in Israel that supports a two state solution with compensation for the diaspora Palestinians and allowing them to return to the Palestinian state (but not to Israel). The Palestinian state would be based on the 67 borders with slight modifications. Israel would dismantle all settlements beyond its border, like it did in Sinai. Jerusalem would be a joint capital.
The above kind of deal could be had years ago if it were not for the issue of the right of return.
The above kind of deal could be had years ago if it were not for the issue of the right of return.
Nonsense. There was nothing stopping Israel from making such a deal and leaving the RoR issue up for debate afterwards if it desired to do so. Israel has no desire to give up the lands it occupies. You don't spend billions of dollars on settlements and infrastructure just to tear it all down a few years later and vacate just as soon as an ok can be obtained from the Palestinians. The settlements are evidence Israel intends to stay and expand. The peace process is a farce intended to legitimize Israeli expansionism by putting the onus on the Palestinians to accept their dispossession as a precondition against further dispossession. It's a trap in that once the Palestinians accept Israel's expanded borders, it legitimizes Israel's theft with no guarantee of anything in return.
You are just plain wrong. From 67 to 77 there were no settlements and peace was not at hand. Furthermore, Israel proved you wrong by dismantling the settlements in Sinai for peace. Also, Israel left behind quite a few settlements in Gaza. So you see, Israel's actions prove you wrong.
The diaspora Palestinians will not approve any deal without the right of return and that is why there is no peace.
Let's not beat around the bush here. Israel has been actively settling the land with demographic purpose since 1948.
If you don't accept even the 48 cease fire borders, what is there to talk about? When you mean peace, what exactly do you mean? The Jews moving out of Israel???
Have an imagination. We can talk about equality.
Okay. Let's talk about equality in Yemen.
For the few remaining Jews and the Akhdam.
why are you changing the subject? we weren't talking about Yemen. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Don't complicate things for him Tom, clearly the Palestinians are responsible for anti-Jewish racism all over the world.
I'm sure you also mobilize your energies against discrimination and inequality of Yemeni Jews & other Arab Jews once they reached Israel?
Or you only tokenize their plight when you can use it in a misguided attempt to justify Israeli discrimination against Arabs by pointing to discrimination against Jews in other part of the world?
thank you SOO much for saying that Yaman, it's truly appreciated.
(and ditto for all the other stars of hasbara – GLBTQ, Ethiopians, Israeli Arab soccer players etc etc)
I should say "Israeli Arab", I'm referring to the official term
Actually, sometimes they do. Jews in Yemen cannot live there with any dignity, because they are Jews, not Yemeni. Good thing there is a Jewish state for them.
so Israel should continue discriminating against Palestinians because Muslim Yemenis expelled Jews?
as Yaman asked, are they responsible for every kind of anti-Jewish discrimination around the world?
again, instead of staying on topic you are changing the subject to a case that doesn't involve Palestinians in any way. Yaman's post is about Palestinian rights, not about Tibet, or Burma, or Sri Lanka or anywhere else.
Well, Yaman is a Yemeni, is he not?
Even if I am… what does this have to do with Palestinian rights?
If you are Yemeni, then as a citizen of the country that has worked the hardest to prove the necessity of the Jewish state, you have no standing to criticize the Jewish state.
LOL you discover new things every day… I never knew you were into chewing Gat! I thought you were more of a weed kind of guy.
so Israel should continue discriminating against Palestinians because…
No, Israel should protect its security from people who want to destroy it. It may seem very heinous to you, for the Jews to have the nerve to defend themselves, but they do.
jjj, that's a bit like claiming anyone who says the US government has historically discriminated against blacks really wants to kill all the whites. Mentioning discrimination against X is not at all the same as wanting to expel Y. That comment didn't make too much sense.
Peace means full equality,without anyone moving out.
Please grant me that I understand that.
Could you explain what full equality for the 5 million Palestinians in the diaspora means? And how can they return to their properties without Jews being evicted from them?
first of all, the whole subject is moot, since the government isn't willing to even clear settlements, never mind accepting the right of return. So making this into the big barrier for peace is ridiculous – you yourself said building settlements speeded up after 1977, and this was regardless of the right of return.
Secondly, the RoR is too often discussed like an outbreak of a disease. It's a form of immigration, only by people who are actually natives. I doubt if 5 million people would want to return. But 1 million ex-Soviet Jews did immigrate in the 90s and no one was evacuated, the ecology didn't collapse and the world didn't come to an end. If people just thought of it in these terms instead of as a new Holocaust things would be very different.
In any case, it isn't a "request". Anyone whose family has lived in Jaffa for centuries deserves to live there if she or he wants to – not instead of anyone else.
Look, I am willing to be convinced but you are not addressing my concerns seriously. How would the US cope with immigration of 250 million Latinos? That is the extent of what you want Israel to do.
Do you really think there are empty houses in Jaffa or Lod waiting for people to return? You will need to evict Jews from these cities to make room for the Palestinians.
The million Russian Jews came over a ten year period. They were mostly educated. They mostly live in the periphery were housing is inexpensive. But 20 years have passed since the nineties. Real estate even in the periphery is more expensive. And we are talking about 5 million poor refugees. Also, the Palestinians are not saying they want to return to anyplace in Israel. They want to return to their homes and villages. These places are already inhabited by Jews. Take a concrete example. Tel-Aviv university is built over the little hamlet of Sheich Monis. What does it mean for the people of this hamlet to exercise their right of return? Please be specific.
It is not helpful when you say you demand Jews leave their property in Jaffa, Haifa or anywhere else to make place for Arabs. There must be some compromise or there will never be peace. The most reasonable compromise is monetary compensation.
The RoR is the main thing stopping peace because unless the Palestinians articulate a reasonable proposal about this, no strong peace camp in Israel will ever emerge. Why fight the settlers if you are then stuck with the issue of the RoR? I have a life to live. I will not devote myself to political activity unless I know there is real hope. And unless Palestinians clarify to me the issue of the RoR, I do not see hope.
I have no idea how the US would deal with that and I don't see the relevance. I gave you a more relevant analogy with ex-Soviet Jews, a million people who were absorbed in the country without anyone being evacuated. The government could, for example, subsidize rent in Ramat Aviv for former residents of Sheikh Muwwanis. It could build new housing in Jaffa. It could give more building permits in Arab villages so that people could live with their relatives. It could preserve old cemeteries and churches and allow people to visit the tombs of their family members. There's so much that could be done once people get out of this zero sum mentality.
You'll have real hope when you make some effort to build it. You can get yourself and the people around you out of the current mess by showing some solidarity with struggles in Sheikh Jarrah, or in Bilin, or even against people getting evacuated in Jaffa. The more you work with Palestinians, the less isolated you'll feel and the more hope you'll have.
They don't bite, you know.
I have a friend who lives in Tarshiha, in the Galilee, and she really would like her relatives, currently in Germany, to be able to live with her. What exactly does she need to clarify to you? that she isn't allowed to live with her family?
btw Palestinians are more educated than you think. Just like the immigration from the ex-SU led to economic growth, this could do too. Even the boost to the housing industry would help.
The everything will be ok mantra is not convincing to me. Doubling the population of the country in a small time period is not feasible. The US example is exactly relevant.
Finding jobs for these people is impossible. Building housing and schools etc. is impossible in a short period of time. There are very few apartments to rent in desirable areas in Israel. Evicting Jews would be impossible. I detailed it all in a post below. You are asking for something unrealistic. You are killing all hope.
I'm curious why you can keep saying "evicting Jews would be impossible" even though you fully realize no one suggested that. Why this need to feel victimized?
I don't know if you read Hebrew, but this very regular Israeli woman decided to get off her ass and join the protests in Sheikh Jarrakh because she doesn't think people should be thrown out into the street. It didn't take much, just getting there once a week. It's not far from the center of Jerusalem.
http://www.haokets.org/default.asp?PageID=10&...
If you're saying you can't do something simple like that until Abbas makes some declaration about why people now living around the world should give up their right to live where they were born, in what is now Israel, then you're just looking for excuses not to do anything. If you really want to talk about solutions it wouldn't be so hard to find them, just like hundreds of thousands of Jews came to a much poorer Israel in the 1950s.
Peace isn't going to come on a plate. If you build solidarity, there will be solidarity. If you sit at home and bitch about politicians, nothing is going to change.
Israeli citizens have a pretty good thing going for them. Israel is booming. The northern and southern borders have never been more quiet. The Palestinians are divided and the Arabs are weak and prefer Israel to Iran. Of course, things can change, but for now things look good. So, for now, Israelis have a lot to lose relative to the situation they are in.
I am willing to take chances for peace. But I would like to understand what the risks are. Talking in generalities is not helping. It makes me reject the RoR immediately. If I and other Israelis were ever to accept it, we must understand it in detail. It is going to have a huge effect on Israel. You should consider explaining this issue to us. I think you are making a big mistake in treating this issue in a nonchalant manner.
look at my post just below on imaging return
I'm not being non-chalant, just a little less hysterical than the way it's usually talked about in Israel. Have a look at my post below on imagining return.
according to Prof. Salman Abu Sitta,
90% of all village sites are still vacant
http://www.plands.org/power/23.htm
Sending me to a one pager by someone on an acid trip is being nonchalant. I can also imagine many things. That does not mean they will happen.
I live in Israel. Abu-Sitta's map is a sick joke. Why don't you go to Israel and see for yourself?
uuh, as I wrote in my post, I'm Israeli. I lived there for 31 years, I go back twice a year and I've been to the sites of many of the destroyed villages on tours with Zochrot, which I'm guessing you never did and this is why I can confirm many of them are on agricultural lands or parks just like Abu Sitta says. But whatever.
actually, why don't YOU go on tours with Zochrot and see for yourself?
Many of them? How many? So you want to trash the little agricultural land and parks Israel has left? You want to make Israel a concrete jungle?
Toda raba. Ani lo mevin otcha legamrei. Pitsui kaspi ze hadavar hachi nachun. Kol davar acher zo utopia she'lo ta'avod ve'ata yodeah et ze. Bimkum la'azor la'shalom ata ma'arim kesha'im. Haval.
נו, ואתה חושב שאף אחד לא שמע עד עכשיו על פיצויים כספיים? יש פה משהו הרבה יותר עמוק שרוב הישראלים לא מבינים, זהות של אנשים שקשורה בצורה מאוד עמוקה למקומות ספציפיים שהמשפחה שלהם חיה בהם מאות שנים. אתה יכול להתעלם מזה אבל זה לא ייפתר כל כך בקלות. ככל שאנשים יגלו יותר פתיחות לדבר על זה, לפחות, יהיה יותר סיכוי להגיע להבנות גם לגבי נושאים אחרים, כי האטימות שלנו ביחס לכל מה שקרה (לא רק ב- 48, אנשים צעירים מאבדים את התושבות שלהם כל הזמן) לא מקדמת פיוס ולא יוצרת הבנה כלפינו וכלפי הצרכים והזכויות שלנו.
וזה הרי לא תלוי בי, אני מעביר מה שאני שומע מחברים פלסטינים.
ופארקים זה מאוד יפה, אבל אי אפשר להגיד לבנאדם להישאר במחנה פליטים כי רוצים לשמור על הנוף. צריך ללמוד ולהבין ולהפנים מה עבר עליהם בשישים השנים האחרונות.
אני מוכן להבין וללמוד, אבל איך נגיע לפיתרון ללא הכרה בעובדות קשות? בכל זאת, מה שעבר עליהם הוא גם באשמתם וגם באשמת מדינות ערב. אני מבין את הגישה שלך אך לעניות דעתי היא מוטעית. היא יוצרת ציפיות שמקשות להגיע להבנה היסטורית בינינו לבינם. כמוכן, זה הורג את מחנה השלום.
תשמע, אני עובד באופן קבוע עם פלסטינים וזה בפירוש משנה את היחס שלהם לישראלים, הרבה אנשים אמרו לי את זה. לא נראה לי שזאת הבעיה ולא נראה לי שהפתרון הוא לשבת בבית ולחכות שפתאום אחרי שישים שנה אנשים יתיאשו וישכחו מהזכויות שלהם. זה לא שאני בקשר אישי עם כמה מליוני פלסטינים שקיבלו ממני הבטחה לעשות משהו בעניין הזה. הקשר של אנשים למקום שממנו הם או המשפחה שלהם הגיעו לא תלוי בהבטחות שלי. אגב, אני לא באמת בטוח שכל כך הרבה אנשים רוצים לחזור, אבל העניין הוא העיקרון של לתת להם לעשות את זה אם הם ירצו, בלי לגרש אף ישראלי, כי זה מה שנמנע מהם עד עכשיו והכפייה הזאת מייצרת הרבה שנאה ומרירות.
מחנה השלום צריך להתעורר ולעבוד גם ביחס להרבה ישראלים שהוא מתעלם מהם וגם ביחס לפלסטינים, במקום לעשות דברים באופן חד צדדי. כל עוד ברק הוא המשרת הראשי של ביבי ומרצ לא ממש מפגינה מנהיגות, לא נראה לי שהבעיה זה הפעילות של אנשים כמוני. מחנה השלום האמיתי, האקטיביסטים, חי וקיים ועושה הרבה דברים כל הזמן, אבל עוד אנשים צריכים להתגייס, ממש להתחיל להקדיש לזה זמן, אם אפשר, אחרת שום דבר לא יקרה מעצמו.
וזה ממש לא ברור שמה שקרה הוא באשמתם, הסיפור הוא מאוד מורכב וזה לא כ"כ פשוט להגיד שהם תקפו את ישראל ב- 84.אפילו בן-גוריון הכיר, בינואר 48, בזה שרובם לא רצו להיות מעורבים במלחמה, והיו הרבה כפרים שחתמו על הסכמי אי-לוחמה עם הישובים היהודים ליד וגורשו בכל זאת. זה נכון שהיה להם מנהיג איום ונורא, אלחוסייני, ועדיין זאת לא הצדקה לסילוק סיטוני של מאות אלפי אנשים.
לגבי מדינות ערב, אני לא מכיר הרבה פלסטינים או ערבים שמתלהבים מההנהגות שלהם, ככה שאתה מתפרץ לדלת פתוחה.
re imagining return –
http://borderlinecrimes.com/2009/12/16/imagining-...
You need to get your facts straight. There were definitely settlements before 1977 (see Alon Plan) and they were instituted by the labor government. It is true settlements expanded dramatically after 1977, but it is clear Israel always intended to create "facts on the ground" that would be immune to any peace deal.
You don't express your desire for peace by starting a war, seizing your neighbors' territory and then building illegal settlements on it. This may be difficult for people emersed in Zionist fiction to grasp, but most reasonable people are going to see that as evidence you intend to conquer them and steal their land. I mean, go figure, hey?
Israel's alleged "withdrawal" from Gaza was simply a tactical retreat to institute a new policy of crushing the Palestinians through a brutal siege and creating conditions of life so dire the people would have little choice but to vote with their feet. The settlers were withdrawn because it would have been too difficult to defend them and any continued occupation would have created legal obligations by Israel to maintain and protect the civilian population of Gaza.
Jordan offered a peace deal with Israel in 1970 in exchange for a withdrawal from the West Bank and Israel refused. The US in 1970 also offered to guarantee Israel's security with either US troops, UN forces or both in exchange for Israel honoring the terms of Resolution 242. They also refused that.
So your "no peace was at hand" claim is a fiction.
How could Jordan and the US deliver what is only the Palestinians to give? Jordan and the US could not promise a historical compromise with the Palestinians, which is the only way for peace. So of course you are wrong. Until the Palestinians give up the right of return, there will be no peace.
could you explain how the right of return is motivating the Israeli government to set up more settlements? or do you think there can be peace together with creeping annexation?
It is quite simple. Fighting the settlers is difficult. Most of us have a life to live. It is even more useless to fight the settlers knowing that there is no solution anyway for the right of return. So unless the Palestinians are clear about the issue, I think it will be hard to mobilize a front in Israel against the settlers. They are winning because they are the most motivated while the average Israeli would join the fight only if he/she knew that there is actually a solution if settlement is stopped.
1. it isn't just about the settlers. What about what the army is doing? did you read the latest report of Breaking the Silence?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3841480...
what about the real estate agents who are profiting from the settlements, like Lev Levayev?
2. You can always look for excuses for not doing anything, but there are plenty of Israeli activists who've realized it's in their own interest to put a stop to these abuses asap and not just to pretend they're not happening. The protests in Sheikh Jarrakh in Jerusalem are getting bigger every week since people are just outraged at the idea of throwing people out into the street. You don't need some kind of overall political plan just to go to a protest.
(real estate moguls, not agents)
You don't express your desire for peace by starting a war,
Who started a war?
what are you talking about? from 67 to 77 there was the Alon Plan, there were settlements in the Jordan Valley, there was Kiryat Arba… know your history, man!
Get serious, Kiryat Arab is 7,200 people today. In 1971 it was a few families in a military base. Only when Begin came to power there was large scale settlement.
no, she isn't a specific case, it happens all the time. The term is "quiet transfer".
in Jerusalem, "According to official sources, permanent residency of more than 3,000 individuals "expired" since December 1995."
http://www.btselem.org/English/Jerusalem/Revocati...
Tompe's friend is not a specific case. My husband was also born in Jerusalem. He is has also been barrred from residency.
"Usually if you have a residency card you can live there" – Do you not see the fault in that statement? Firstly, if you have a residency card there should be no circumstance where you cannot live there. Second, it's obvious that you don't know how the "system" works there.
Do you have any idea how much it would cost to compensate 5 million Palestinian refugees and relocate them to other countries that would have them as citizens? Even at a trivial and inadequate award of $20,000 apiece, we are looking at $100 billion. A settlement of $250,000 per Palestinian plus guaranteed citizenship in another country would be a minimum of $1.25 trillion.
If all they're asking for its the right of return, you're getting off cheap.
The compensation will go to the original victims and their estates, and will be per family. There were 800,000 or so Palestinians that left or were forced to leave. That is about 150,000 families. If each family is compensated at $250,000 that comes to $37.5 billion dollars, a reasonable sum that the US, Europe and Israel can pay over several years.
As for the right of return. I can assure you that they will never get it without militarily defeating Israel. Any amount of BDS would not convince Israelis to allow millions of people to enter Israel. Would the Americans ever allow 250 (the same ration as 5 million Palestinians to 7 million Israelis) million Latin Americans into their own country? Would the UK allow 30 million Pakistanis? The people living in Israel are 3 generations removed from 48 or immigrants that came after 48 and view it as a greater injustice to allow the right of return because it will be the end of Israel. Even the people that do not care about the Jewish characteristics of the state understand that Israel cannot deal with a doubling of its population over night and with the nightmare of redistributing property. It takes years to get someone out of his apartment in Israel for not paying his mortgage. How long is it going to take to evict people living on Arab property in 1948? And with hundreds of thousands of such cases, the courts will be clogged for decades. That is even if the supreme court of Israel would allow such evictions, which I highly doubt. If someone holds a legal deed to property, I think it is unlikely that the supreme court will allow the Knesset to make a law that makes this deed null and void because of the right of return.
I think most Palestinians that demand the right of return have never though through the consequences or just want the dismantling of Israel. But anybody that wants peace, should agree to compensation for the Palestinians instead of the right of return.
What happens to the millions of Palestinians who aren't compensated under this deal? They just stay in the camps? Why would the right of return "destroy Israel?" Please explain how that works.
How is it you cite only 150,000 families for compensation but 5 million Palestinians for right of return? Are 5 million Palestinians really going to flood into Israel if they are afforded the right of return?
Meanwhile, Palestinians on the West Bank continue to be evicted and ethnically cleansed to make lebensraum for Jews "returning" to a land they can't prove they came from 2,000 years ago under Israel's laws of return.
To the extent Israel was responsible for 800,000 Palestinians leaving it was certainly not responsible that the second and third generation Palestinians stayed in camps. The Arab world is responsible for that. If Israel owes anything to anyone it is to the people that it directly affected. If I take a house from someone, I owe him for the house, not his grandchildren who were not even born when I took the house. I imagine that the 5 million are descendants of the original 800,000 and the money going to the people that lost their property will find its way also to their descendants if they so choose to do so. As for the Palestinian view of the right of return, their view is that all 5 million should have a right to return. I can't guess how many will actually return but it could very well be several millions.
How would the right of return destroy Israel? I am a little surprised you are even asking:
1) It will create a two nation state with great animosity between the two nations. Furthermore the animosity between the two nations will be huge because of the redistribution of property, the historical hatred and the fact that the Jews are about 10 times richer on average than the Palestinians. This is a recipe for civil war just like in Lebanon or Iraq.
2) How will Israel be able to build enough schools and houses and public services for millions of people arriving suddenly?
3) How will Israel create enough jobs for the Palestinians? Israel is a high tech economy and most Palestinians are not educated enough to fit in?
4) Israel will be completely trashed ecologically. Israel is already one of the most densely populated countries in the world. Imagine doubling the population quickly. Usually planning in Israel and getting permits takes years. Where will the Palestinians and evicted Jews live in the meantime? Most likely unplanned communities will emerge, thus trashing Israel's ecology.
5) Think of it this way. What would happen to the US if it received a sudden influx of 250 million immigrants from Mexico, Latin America and South America. How would the US cope?
The right of return is an unreasonable request.
Very insightful and enlightening. Thank you.
What about the discrimination Jews continue to face in Arab countries (the ones foolish enough not to have gotten out years ago)?
Is that just?
What about imposing Sharia law on Jews? Is that just?
the discrimination Jews face in Arab countries is neither just nor an excuse for any other kind of discrimination
Yaman,
I am not sure I understand what the legitimacy problem for Israel is. When sanctions were applied on Iraq for example, what problems did Iraq face that were not related to its economy?
[...] whose leaders, no matter where they start, once filtered through the party machine, end up spouting meaningless make-believe like Obama on Palestine in Tampa, is part of the same special interest control that has incapacitated our [...]
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.
Palestinians' long history of violence against Israel is an Epic Fail. Fortunately some Palestinians realize this and do not support the sort of tactics being espoused here.
It seems odd that here at Kabobfest you categorically reject any Palestinian who advocates a different course of action.