Guest post by Roqayah Chamseddine
As the Anglo-American French coalition sustains its “humanitarian” military assault on Libya with a fiery downpour of missiles and intelligence many activists in the United States of have raised the Libyan flag in solidarity with calls for air strikes against Libya.
They continued to gleefully cheer even as missiles landed, greeting Libyan soil with 2,000-pound bombs possibly tainting the earth with depleted uranium. Emotive contentions used pre-Iraq invasion are now being recycled unashamedly in support of military intervention in Libya while those bold enough to publicly admonish the so-called “humanitarian intervention” have been shamelessly branded Gaddafi apologists and supporters of genocide. Mouse-click couch warriors have more or less attempted to wipe out even the slightest cross-examination of the military tactics being used in Libya, or those noting that no end game has been offered.
As Simon Jenkins, British columnist and author, recently noted:
Happy days are back for the sofa strategists and beltway bombardiers. After the miseries of Iraq and Afghanistan, a Libyan no-fly zone is just the tonic they need. If you zero in from carrier A, you can take out the Tripoli air defences while carrier B zaps the mercenary bases and carrier C zooms with special forces to secure the oilfields. You might tell the Americans to go easy on Leptis Magna after what they did to Babylon. Otherwise, let rip. You can sense the potency surging through Downing Street’s veins. This is how wars begin, and beginning wars is politically sexy.
What was assumed to be nothing more than a surgical military intercession has now taken a most dramatic turn; President Obama recently authorized covert action “findings“, providing broad authorization for potential U.S. government maneuvers to support the Libyan rebels therein directly violating an arms embargo on Libya by the U.N. Security Council imposed on February 26.
The “humanitarian intervention” in Libya is a farce, it is a storyline developed to stroke the ego of every nationalist still reeling from the pillaging of Iraq. As the days toward Gaddafi’s end creep nearer let us remember the fall of Saddam’s statue in central Baghdad, the joyous men and women who unleashed their genuine frustration and rage with shoes – After almost a decade a virus still rages in Iraq, despite “mission accomplished”: Mercenaries. They have paralyzed Iraq and this is what may be awaiting Libya.
In all of this imperialistic tug of war there is dignity, a thin string being pulled two and fro, so close to snapping in two, you can hear the sound of screams as each fiber is lacerated. The West, for decades, has rejected the people’s right to self-determination. They have stripped the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc naked and dragged them along in chains in an attempt to publicize and glorify their military possessions; a show of might, an entertaining display of control.
And so, where is the dignity in shaking the bloodied hands of an empire which touts its undying allegiance to “humanitarianism” yet unashamedly lines streets with corpses tagged “collateral damage”? Where is the dignity in submission, on bended knee, in order to shine the steel-toed boots of the regimes which have colonized much of the Middle East and North Africa?
What is the price of dignity? Is it a single body? A million corpses? Is it natural resources?
Omar El Mukhtar, born near Tobruk in eastern Barqa, Libya in 1862, at the age of 53 years old began fighting for some twenty years, even until his capture, against Italian occupation of Libya; he made an oath to keep fighting against the Italian invasion even if it meant he would face them alone: “I shall not cease to fight against thee and thy people until either you leave my country or I leave my life. And I swear by Him who knows what is in man’s hearts that if my hands were not bound this very moment, I would fight you with my bare hands, old and broken as I am..”
Omar El Mukhtar was offered by the Italian Forces two choices, either he would become a puppet of the regime or face the gallows. Omar El Mukhtar chose the hangman’s noose.
“I will not leave Libya until I achieve one of the highest glories; martyrdom or victory. I believe my right to freedom and my country’s right to live; this belief is stronger than any weapon. Even if the cannon breaks my sword, injustice will never break this right.”
Roqayah Chamseddine is a freelance journalist and international humanitarian activist. She blogs on TheCynicalArab.com. Follow her on @iRevolt
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Souad,
Would you care to 'document' the atrocities that Gaddafi has supposedly perpetrated to justify this war on Libya? Where is this imminent 'noose' that Libyans are supposedly facing?
I'm no fan of Gaddafi an I oppose all forms of dictatorship (even when cloaked in the officialdom of the UN), but I can tell the difference between unverified rumours and hearsay from a chronically biased media, and EVIDENCE. The Russian military said that the supposed airstrikes on civilians of mid-late February did not take place. The Department of Defense (Robert Gates and Adm Mike Mullen) stated that they had 'no confirmation' of the airstrikes, only press reports.
Perhaps you couldn't prise yourself away from your Al Jazeera/BBC drip-feed for long enough to do some independent research. Alas, the respective nations of both of those state-run media outlets are now bombing Libya with the approval of impressionable and easily-led liberals like you.
Posted by nit2am | April 1, 2011, 10:04 amThis sort of thing used to chock me, but I have got used to over the last month. Advising Libyans whose relatives have been killed in this uprising and others in the past killed and imprisoned and tortured, that they should 'research more'. Telling Libyans who hear horror stories and get sent shocking videos to distribute to the media from friends and family inside that they need to stop believing the media propaganda. But here it is particularly explicit, you have somone who knows Soad is a Libyan yet regurgitates the standard 'impressionable and easily-led liberals like you'. Sick, delusional, disonnected from reality, not caring for human cost of their theories…who do they remind me of again?
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 2:17 pmApparently to you it is offensive to actual fact-check contentions, substantiate emotional banter with evidence. There is nothing explicit in seeking out the truth, you do not get a pass-to-go simply because you provide moving stories. When you have a large scale military intervention raging one would only assume you would yearn to bolster your premise with something we like to call 'fact'
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 3:43 pmGates candidly admitted there were no air strikes against civilians, those were rumors, and you're still searching for "truth"? Perhaps what you're really looking for is a way to declare that G is not so bad after all, at least not nearly as bad as the horrible western imperialists. After that step is taken, the choice is clear: surrender to G just to avoid horrible western intervention.
That has nothing to do with facts. It's a matter of moral choices. Your choices here are extremely questionable, just as the rest of your rhetoric.
Posted by Jee | April 6, 2011, 3:07 am"The Russian military said that the supposed airstrikes on civilians of mid-late February did not take place"
Don't you think American military doesn't know that? Surely it knows this and more. What satellites cannot see though is hundreds and thousands being arrested, kidnapped, thrown in prison, tortured and killed after a city is taken and subdued (Zawiyah, Zwara, all the smaller cities, and Tripoli !). Your "talking points" are few and far between because you don't care to see the whole picture, you're only looking for chosen arguments to support your rotten view of how things should be. Unfortunately without the oh so horrible "imperialist" intervention there wouldn't be any free Libyans to worry about right now, they'd all be either dead or in prison. Your arguments are specious.
Posted by Jee | April 6, 2011, 2:58 amAll US wars are based on lies and deception. Humanitarian intervention is the latest, sexiest and most popular myth. If you thought Libyans were poor and oppressed under Gaddafi, just wait for the physical, cultural, and economic devastation that Western multinationals and the IMF will wreak.
Posted by nit2am | April 1, 2011, 10:05 amAnti-imperialists are following "twisted" logic if they stand against foreign intercession in Libya? The primary reason Libya is in the position we see it in today is due to such meddling; the West has long clamored over Libya http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/war-aga… – historically it follows that such events will take place again.
I have done my best in speaking out, vehemently, against the crimes of Gaddafi along with the crimes of the Western coalition forces who are now being hailed as liberators. A "cursory" glance at my Twitter page is not enough to support your shameful premise in any way. I am not asking anyone to "eat rubble" and "die" as you casually put it. The people of Gaza have long since fought their own battles against apartheid, they have long since managed their own affairs with Resistance. Just as many before them and many after them will.
I relish in the fact that you are offended. I enjoy it. Why? Because as an anti-imperialist I would rather see a mass of people offended than delving into dealings with the butchers of Baghdad.
And as for your invitation to Benghazi, so long as someone offers me a ticket I'm there. If you honestly believe I am another couch warrior you are mistaken Souad.
In my native South Lebanon no one cried out for intervention, no one pleaded with the same brutes who have caused so much devastation in the world to then come and lift us out of the subjugation we were facing; no, the Resistance blocs liberated Southern Lebanon, and that was in the year 2000. No one can tell me that it cannot be done or that is has not been done.
What is most telling, above all else, happens to be your remark in respect to anti-imperialism: "…Libyans aren't here to fulfill your anti-imperialist wet dreams!"
Anti-imperialism is a force against colonization, occupation and imperial policies which have caused the devastation we now see in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia et al. The fight against imperialism is an ethical one, surpassing ethnic and religious divides. It has unified people from all around the globe in standing against imperialist aggression.
"We must bear in mind that imperialism is a world system, the last stage of capitalism — and it must be defeated in a world confrontation. The strategic end of this struggle should be the destruction of imperialism. Our share, the responsibility of the exploited and underdeveloped of the world is to eliminate the foundations of imperialism: our oppressed nations, from where they extract capitals, raw materials, technicians and cheap labor, and to which they export new capitals — instruments of domination — arms and all kinds of articles; thus submerging us in an absolute dependence” – Che Guevara, Message to the Tricontinental, 1967
Imperialism exploits, dominates and submerges nations into total dependence on their colonizer; if this is what you wish to see for Libya then be my guest.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 10:27 amIn your native South Lebanon you got help from both Iran and Syria that helped arm your fighters in the South! I was and still am among those that argue in defense of the assistance you got from Iran and was transported through Syria to your fighters. Many Arabs in the region were opposed to that because they don't want Iranian interference. Perhaps now others will criticize your fighters for receiving assistance from the dictators in Iran and Syria, but I won't. Why? Because people have the right to survive and to live no matter who in the bloody hell helps them, that's why I will always support the muqawama and never criticize Hisbullah for getting help from Iranians! Nobody else in the Arab world cared for your people except for Iran and nobody in the Arab world cared for the Libyans or did anything to help us and we were forced to receive aid from the international community to help us as well. Unbelievable that the people (you from Southern Lebanon) that are attacked by the rest of the Arab world and by the West for getting help from Iran simply because you want to survive would criticize Libyans for getting help from the international community. The arrogance!
Posted by Souad | April 1, 2011, 10:56 amYou're comparing assistance Hezb'Allah and Haraket Amal recieve from Iran with colonialist intercession (i.e. Anglo-American Coalition) – it is not the same I am afraid.
How can the United States, especially, be an honest broken when it has shamelessly divulged in a plethora of massacres, occupations etc.?
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 11:00 amSays you iRevolt, but many Arabs have a problem with who arms you and though I have my own trepidations about Iranian interference in Arab affairs I have no issue with Arabs recieving arms from the Iranians so that they can defend themselves against Zionist or other aggressors. But that's just me, I have to get used to the twisted double standards of which Arabs can live and which should die and it seems that you and other "human rights" activists on the internet are very particular about which Arabs can recieve assistance and which cannot. Good for you that Iran gives you weapons to fight the Zionists, too bad Iran did not do anything to help us before the West intervened. I guess we aren't as special as the people in Southern Lebanon, wonder why.
Posted by Souad | April 1, 2011, 11:08 amSouad,
Sorry about the callous reaction you are receiving from some towards Qaddafi's terrorism against Libyans. And though I'm Palestinian I must admit to being a bit embarrassed that some have chosen to use us as a measuring stick of whether your lives should be valued or not. Please rest assured that not all Arabs value our real hatred of Western imperialism over Libyan lives and I am as certain that Palestine will be liberated as I am that Libyans will demand Western forces leave immediately after Qadafi's fall.
Good luck.
Posted by Wisal | April 1, 2011, 3:05 pmRoqayah Chamseddine has it exactly right. The US doesn't do anything for humanitarian reasons. It never has and it never will. The US is the world's number one arms dealer. It is supporting Al Quedah in Libya and fighting Al Quedah in Aghanistan and Pakistan because of the opportunities to increase market share and sell more weapons. Every bullet spent and every bomb dropped increases the bottom line profits of the mulitnational oil companies and the military-industrial complex.
It is telling that Souad accuses Roqayah of being anti-imperialist. Most countries are fighting to be free of colonialism and imperialism, but apparently not Libya.
Posted by @fubarista | April 1, 2011, 10:46 amMy accusation is not against the idea of being anti-imperialist, my accusation is that her anti-imperialism is compromising her ability to see that Libyans want the right to live and not get butchered for trying to do the same as Tunis and Masr. I am also anti-imperialist but I dont want to die and many Libyans are not willing to die just because it looks better not to get help from the world.
Posted by Souad | April 1, 2011, 11:02 amTunisians and Egyptians rejected foreign intervention; When Hillary Clinton dared show her face in Egypt the youth blocs who lead movements in Tahrir rejected even meeting with her. http://bikyamasr.com/wordpress/?p=30571
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 11:05 amMubarak and Ben Ali did not kill the Egyptians or Tunisians in the numbers that Gaddafi has been killing Libyans.
Posted by Souad | April 1, 2011, 11:10 amAh yes, let's create a hierarchy in order to substantiate which nation is more worthy of receiving assistance.
Have you honestly forgotten the Arab history? Of the "Million Martyrs" of Algeria? Of the slaughter in Lebanon? Of the massacres in Palestine?
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 11:14 amSo are you saying that because nobody helped Algerians or Palestinians that Libyans should suffer the consequences and die silently so that everything is nice and fair for you?????
Posted by Souad | April 1, 2011, 11:16 amAnd in Lebanon let me repeat that you did get help so that you would not be destroyed by Israel, you got help from Iran who were the only people in the region willing to help you because the rest of the Arabs Sunni dictators dont care about the people in Southern Lebanon. So who is creating a heirarchy of who can get help and from whom? Not me.
Posted by Souad | April 1, 2011, 11:18 amYou are rejecting history and using emotive rhetoric to substantiate foreign intervention, which is working only on the behalf of the interests of those taking part.
"Mubarak and Ben Ali did not kill the Egyptians or Tunisians in the numbers that Gaddafi has been killing Libyans."
You are creating a hierarchy here, unashamedly so.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 11:18 amYes, I am being "emotive" Roqayah because you are trying to have a debate with me about why my people should get slaughtered by Gaddafi, very hard for me not to be "emotive" when I hear calculated reasonings about why my people should be killed. I doubt you refrained from being "emotive" during the ZIonist slaughters in South Lebanon. I'm sure in the grand scheme of things I can be forgiven for being "emotive"
Posted by Souad | April 1, 2011, 11:21 amYou have refused to acknowledge that historical precedence agrees with my contention, that the scramble for Libya has been well documented. I have done my part in highlighting the issue, and I highly recommended you read the following instead of following suit with the rest of the mainstream body of "activists" who tout their support for human rights yet align themselves with the most vicious of regimes. http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/war-aga…
The United States et al. cannot be honest brokers, The countries now bombing Libya provided it with hundreds of millions of pounds worth of arms, which it is now using to slaughter rebels http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaa… and bombing campaigns will cause an influx in civilian casualties – not cause them to subside.
This is an attempt on the part of the US and Co. to derail the revolution in Libya.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 11:29 am"This is an attempt on the part of the US and Co. to derail the revolution in Libya."
Paranoid over-ideological thinking built on unrelated facts and specious arguments. US hastened to pull out and Nato can't even fill the void. A revolution derailed? rather saved from the jaws of death.
Posted by Jee | April 6, 2011, 3:24 amThat's exactly what she's saying, to her ideas matter far more than the fate of actual people living this hell (this is what she means by "not using emotive rhetoric"). Very sad but not uncommon.
Posted by Jee | April 6, 2011, 3:17 amYou people are sick and have no business speaking on behalf of the Libyan people. From those saying that Libyans should be slaughtered with dignity to those wondering if Gaddafi committed any atrocities. PS for the one from Southern Lebanon, listen well to the speech that Sayyed Hassan Nasrullah gave, he said anybody willing and able to help should help and that the Libyans should be weary of some of the help they get. Did you dare criticize his speech? As a Libyan I am happy to get any help, even if from the devil to save the lives of Libyans if others here would rather die with dignity then go ahead and march to your deaths. I see no difference between the non Libyans here that are justifying and explaining why Libyans should get massacred for the sake of the region than of the Zionists who claim that it's also for the sake of themselves and the region that Palestinians get massacred. I prefer not to frequent a place where I am told why I should die. Goodbye!
Posted by Souad | April 1, 2011, 10:51 amSayyed Hassan, in his 'Arab Spring' speech, which can be found here: http://thecynicalarab.wordpress.com/2011/03/20/sa… spoke in respect to Libya, yes. Though he went on to say that:
"We also have to understand that the US and the West have given the Libyan regime enough time to crush the revolution, but the people fought back and embarrassed the whole world, otherwise the world would have acknowledged Moammar Gaddafi’s regime again, and his money would have found its way back to the pockets of European Union’s officials as well as others’. I tell the revolutionaries in Libya: Resistance fighters who fought the Israeli aggression for 33 days salute their fellow fighters in Mesrata, Benghazi, Ajdabya, and all Libyan cities and towns. Gaddafi’s serious crime against Lebanon was the abduction of Imam Moussa Sadr and his comments on this issue are mere lies that cannot change the truth.”
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 10:58 amAnd he also said that those that can help should and that Libyans should be wary (but not reject!) help from the West.
Posted by Souad | April 1, 2011, 11:14 amAl Manar: "His eminence stressed that the ongoing revolutions are made by the people against pro-US regimes which do not pose any sort of threat to American policies and unequivocally Israel."
Sayyed Hassan cited revolutions against pro-US Regimes yet asks the Libyans to accept the American Regimes intercession?
Sayyed Nasrallah also said that the US administration had other reasons to interfere in what has transpired since Tunisia. “They fear that oil fields would fall in the hands of sincere nations; this is the main reason for their interference. Keep your eyes on Palestine; as long as the US backs Israel then all of its claims of being with human rights are false.”
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 11:10 amI won't come back here to check your responses Roqahyah you can have the last message if you like to coldly explain why Libyans should die so that you and the rest of the people that view your anti-imperialism as more important than having any kind of humanity towards Libyans if you wish. I only wish the right to live for all people, but right now I am only focused on the Arab world. It's terrible that nobody does anything to help Palestinians but because the world are cowards against Israel does not mean Libyans should suffer any conseqeunces because of that. Good for the people of Southern Lebanon that they get help from Iran, that's great, too bad Iran didn't intervene immediately to help Libyans we would not have rejected their help. The rest of the Arab world would have rejected it but we would not have. I appreciate the efforts of the people who think we are worth saving even while I recognize that they don't lift a finger for Filistine. I dont think we should die because other people are hypocrites and since there are Arabs here that we should die I am going to leave this website before I start feeling any more resentment towards Arabs that are not from Libya. Hope that God forgives you for playing geopolitical games with our lives.
Posted by Souad | April 1, 2011, 11:33 amThe only ones playing "geopolitical games" are the same blocs who funded and bolstered the Gaddafi regime. This is not simply about the people of Libya or even about the Arabs as a cohesive group but about all of humanity. Again, I recommended you read the document I posted earlier as it will shed light on the historical precedence created in the Wests' dealings in North Africa.
I in no way suggested that the Libyan people should simply "die", I made note of Omar El Mokhtar – one of Libya's most prominent freedom fighters.
Revolutions carry with them a price, how much we as a people are willing to pay is up to each individual to decide. I acknowledge your premise though I vehemently disagree. In the end, I wish to see a liberated Libya – one that has no shackles and no masters, especially not ones covered in Red, White and Blue war-paint.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 11:41 am@Souad, I am disgusted but nor surpised at the voting. Like you and all Libyans I feel physically sick when people we see as our brothers and sisters claim the moral high ground while arguing like Erdogan that Benghazi should have been left to its fate, that anything less than ideal change would be worse than a 'permanent revolutionary' regime)=rule by a family of brutes who killed and tortured us for 42 years, failed to use our oil wealth to develop the economy and infrastructure, stole at such insane levels that despite our GDP we have slums and worse schools and hospitals than poorer neighbours (as Gaddafi's spokesman admitted when he said Musa Kusa was in Tunisia because all Libyans go there as it has more advanced healthcare).
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 1:54 pm@Souad Previous protest movements in the 70s and 80s were confined to demonstrations in campuses and schools yet students were hanged live on TV with families and children forced to cheer and sing, with 'revolutionaries' swinging from hanged men's legs, then their corpses were dragged through their hometown to the municipal trash (last small revolt in mid 90s also lead to this). We would have seen a repeat of that on a larger scale if it hadn't been for the Western airstrikes. We would have seen the kidnapping and rape of activists that now occurs Tripoli, and the reoccupied western cites of Zawya, Zwara, Mizda, Gharyan etc repeated in Misrata and Benghazi, in the whole Western mountains and in the East. Of course we are grateful to the coalition, and whatever the cost our money is better spent paying for action that saves our people than for corrupt leaders to kiss Gaddafi's hand or crown him King of Kings.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 1:54 pm@Souad I know the feelings you describe against other Arabs, same emotional reaction when I read Angry Arab's blog just after I saw the video of the 4 Abu Fnas kids (our family friends) blown literally to pieces in Misrata, and earlier when we were mourning my cousin whose death we learned about from a 'tribute to the martyrs' video while another 'anti-imperialist' Nabila Ramadani (well known to Libyans as a friend and paid propagandist for Saif and other Gaddafists) became ubiqutous on British media. However so far their stance really is confined to fellow ideologues. On Arabic social media, Jazeera's poll and call-ins progs the overwhelming majority support the intervention that has saved Libyan lives. By the way Tasnim wrote a rebuttal of the inhuman anti-west-right-or-wrong POV =Libya from a Libyan's Perspective. About Hizbullah, of course they freed (most of) Lebanon+demand fair share of power and wealth for the Shia, but that shouldn't blind us to their support for Syrian and Iranian repression. Such stances have unfairly damaged the popularity of Palestinian and Lebanese cause among Iranians and to a much lesser extent among Syrians, but alhamdulillah I haven't noticed that among Libyans.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 2:09 pmYara,
Please know not all Arabs feel that Libyans should have been killed by Gaddafi's approaching forces. And please remember that there is an age demographic of those that are regular contributors to this site.
Posted by Kawther | April 3, 2011, 2:58 pmGood point about the age issue Kawther, but still can't imagine how difficult it must be for Libyans to sift through the comments of people so opinionated about what their fate should be.
The rigidity of not accepting any help from Western forces without taking into consideration what would have happened to Libyans had they not gotten Western intervention is very narrow and rigid.
A lot of Arab "leftists" and "progressives" were very vocal about how horrible Qaddafi was prior to Western intervention–they offered great cut and paste slogans and quotes about how great steadfast people were and how nice awakening to a new dawn would be but never offered any real solutions as to what next steps ought be–just poetry for the revolution.
We all hoped that those initial military defections would have swung power to the opposition but clearly Qaddafi did not keep the military either trained or equipped. So though the people wanted to fight and tried to fight, they ultimately were unable to topple the dictator on their own. Now you will find plenty of leftists or alleged leftists writing op-ed pieces besmirching the Libyan opposition and calling them either Al Qaidah or future slaves of the West. Some even warn strongly against arming the opposition. So we have some leftists that don't want the West to intervene, others that don't want the opposition to be armed and don't want any intervention, and others running around painting them as terrorists or future Karzai. Basically, the threat of Western Imperialism trumps the actual slaughter of Libyan civilians. Let's hope these kids grow up fast.
Posted by Wisal | April 3, 2011, 8:27 pmThe problem with allying with the Devil to save your life, is that you lose your soul. There's a small book published last year called, "The Politics of Genocide," by Edward Herman and David Peterson. In order to understand what is going on in Libya, you have to understand the politics of genocide. There will not be fewer deaths in Benghazi due to NATO intervention, there will be more deaths in Benghazi than there would have been otherwise. Most will be civilians, mainly women, children, the elderly, and noncombatants who stay at home are are easy prey for bombs. You're just sacrificing civilians because there weren't enough soldiers to win, or enough anti-Gaddafi Libyans to force him to step down without a civil war. For the sake of a thousand rebels, a million civilians will die. That's what happens when the Devil is your friend.
Posted by @fubarista | April 1, 2011, 2:15 pm'there weren't enough…anti-Gaddafi Libyans' yes that was the problem too many people love him he is so adorable, nothing to do with his brutal methods that havent been resorted to (yet) even by Assad or Saleh. Like I said I am no longer schocked by such arguments, and I have learned not to bother finding and posting links to videos of the peaceful protestors including kids at the sit-ins in almost every city East and West who were literally torn to pieces by heavy artillery. The good thing is that a lot of people and their rhetoric have been revealed to me and all Libyans.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 2:59 pmyou people don't have a soul as your every comment and vote shows
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 8:26 amYou're plainly ignoring facts here. Every day civilians are dying from G shelling in Misrata while those in Benghazi and other eastern towns have been spared and returned home, thanks above all to France, GB, US and Qatar. Unfortunately rebels were not able to firmly secure Ajdabiya and Brega where fighting is ongoing and civilians are still dying, not from western airstrikes but from shelling! However a lot of G troops must have died from western air strikes by now. It's unfortunate but they chose their fate.
Posted by Jee | April 6, 2011, 4:03 amAll of you continue to ignore facts, documents, key historical precedence. The same coalitions “protecting” Libyans armed Gaddafi; the weaponry they provides him are now being used against the rebels and people of Libya.
Posted by Roqayah | April 1, 2011, 2:21 pmDo you listen to yourself? You have the 'facts, documents, historical precedence' on your side, while Libyans are too emotional/undignified/shameless to see the truth. Problem is your fact are just made up, you stand on nothing but ideology. The weapons killing Libyans are from DRK and Russia, only a few things e.g sniper rifles (as in 10s) are Western, Khamis had not had time to buy his dream army. And the undisputable fact is that without the coalition Benghazi would be like Misrata now (if they were able to fight against a larger force even more heroically than Misrata did), Misrata would be like Zawiya, so the quotation marks are ridiculous.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 5:04 pmWestern coalition powers provided Gaddafi’s forces with military support http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8350862/Western-arms-helping-Libyan-forces-massacre-anti-regime-rebels-EU-documents-reveal.html,
Posted by Roqayah | April 1, 2011, 5:11 pmEveryone can read what I wrote Roqayah, 'The weapons killing Libyans are from DRK and Russia, only a few things e.g sniper rifles (as in 10s) are Western, Khamis had not had time to buy his dream army' The munitions Libyan mentioned from the when they were calling Jazeera to describe attacks on protests and videos of these acts on yotube, and now professional media reports on unequal fight show the kind of munitions used. Not that facts matter, just your 'anti-Western narrative.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 5:19 pmRoqayah,
I'm going to use a lot of "emotive" language, and I already know it so please don't harp on it. .
You've been adamant that you don't support Western intervention in any scenario anywhere in the Middle East and you are entitled to that, many people feel the same way you do. But Souad and Yara, who are both Libyan have said they don't give a crap about what the US has done historically that they still invited, appreciated and applauded intervention. They felt their families were at risk by a lunatic who didn't think much of airing his hatred of his own people on State television and then following up with those threats by paying Libyans and mercenaries from around the world to patrol neighborhoods, attack people, kill them and at times, apparently rape them. They recognized the dangers of western intervention but weighed their options and felt more would die without intervention than might die due to intervention. The record stands that should you find yourself in the same exact situation that you would decline Western intervention. We get it, Roqayah, good for you.
You have got to understand though that your desire to want to relentlessly "debate" (are you still in college?) with Libyans that don't agree with your position makes you come off as incredibly callous and arrogant. You may or may not ever get why it's arrogant or callous to want to "debate" with Libyans about what the immediate fate of their families ought be under Qaddafi but I am impressed with Yara's patience in responding to you.
Also, me not wanting to click on any of the links you are plastering in the comments is not because I prefer "emotive" stuff over your "facts." It's just that an essay no matter how compelling or beautifully written by random people on the internet will not make me ignore the terror that Libyans are living through, the reaction of Libyans to intervention and what every single Libyan I know in the real world (progressive leftists) are saying.
And for the guy (Sean, I believe) that wants "proof" that Qaddafi committed any atrocities please refer back to what all the people that are now in your camp were saying about Qaddafi before US involvement. They were all attacking the dictator and expressing alarm at the horrors being committed against Libyans. The minute the US intervened they collectively forgot everything leading up to the intervention. Suddenly, everything before intervention was par for the course and could have been tolerated for longer, or, they argued it never happened.
I am a Palestinian and I don't care for the Iranian or Syrian regimes, but, I welcome and would ask for any assistance they might give to the resistance in Lebanon and Gaza because at the end of the day I care that the resistance continue to be armed and that the struggle against the Zionist entity continue until the day all of our lands are liberated, because I care about the preservation of Arab life. It would be great not to need the assistance of Syria, who, for example did the dirtiest of the dirty work for the Americans when they tortured Maher Arrar, but, I don't have a choice over who arms or helps to make sure we stay armed, and since I care about the preservation of the Palestinian people and the Shia in Southern Lebanon I will overlook who we Arabs get help from. Libyans have the same right and they don't have many options either.
Yara was correct when he said that this was "sick" behavior being displayed by some of the commentators on this blog. I sincerely hope that there are many more people reading and not commenting that feel the same outrage that Libyans are expressing.
This is sad, I am feeling very "emotive" hope you can forgive me Roqayah.
Posted by Wisal | April 3, 2011, 12:47 amThis pseudo-debate has nothing to do with me personally, be it whether I am still attending University or otherwise, secondly you are certainly entitled to your opinion in respect to whether I come off as “arrogant” or “callous”. I have noted my vehement respect for a persons choice, in their decision – irregardless of whether or not I agree. I do not have to.
I have cited at least one Libyan who disagrees with the intervention and mind you, there are many more.
I was not “plastering” links for the sake of doing so, I was bolstering my own case – proving my own premise. You choose not to even click said links, and again that is your decision.
The military intercession is already showing major signs of failure and of the tremendous cost in lives; rebels reporting dead comrades due to Western Coalition strikes and the Vatican citing dead civilians, many of which were children.
Also, UK campaigners have issued a joint statement on the use of depleted uranium in Libya http://bit.ly/hsPhkR – this has an unquestionable long-term effect on all civilians in Libya.
My position stands, unwavering; I am not attempting to align myself with a position without any factual, ethical etc. backing. I have done my best to prove the case against the airstrikes and intervention. Many others, including Tariq Ali, have done a much better job. I cited his latest piece, which I highly reccomend.
These are not “random people on the Internet” but anthropologists, scientists, human rights activist’s, authors, columnists and the like.
When Yara made a point that he would continue to reply there was no call on your part to dismiss a “relentless debate”, none whatsoever. I’m simply attempting to make my point and I believe I have done my best. Almost 200 comments and still no one has answered a single question. I introduced my article to other Libyans, including one I began watching on Twitter (@libyahmed); I asked them if I came off brutish or insensitive and they said no. I do not wish to offend a single person but if I do in an attempt to convey the truth to the best of my ability then I can assure you I take no issue with it. All parties will take offense, irregardless. Feelings always tend to get in the way or fact-driven dialogues. Again, stirring anecdotes are great, I respect them. I will not attempt to belittle any party by saying how I empathize etc. I do not need to prove my solidarity in such a manner.
There are many who agreed with me stance and many who did not; some I knocked on the fence in agreement, some I kept on the fence and others who leapt towards an opposing viewpoint. Again, I do not mind.
What is transpiring in the Arab world has rattled us all. The debate will push forward and time will tell as to what shall transpire as a result of the military intervention.
I truly appreciated your comments and I apologize if I came off arrogant or what have you as this was certainly not my intention.
Posted by Roqayah | April 3, 2011, 2:51 amI have alredy adressed the Libyan anarchist who thinks Libyans were wrong to ''militarise'' the revolution, which means we would all have been suppressed by the kataib Gaddafi. She proposes hypotheticals when she know the only cities which remainsed free are those that with an imbalance of power and icredible bravery fought back. Those who did not Mizda, Gherian, Tripoli…etc the demonstrations were suppressed, the anti-Gaddafi slogans painted over and now activists and their families are being rounded up at leisure.
Libyahmed is the exact opposite, the only thing they agree on is the denial of facts happening right infront of them, he claims that the revoltuionary forces were winning, we had planes that were bombing Gaddafi forces aand forcing them back, and the intervention has stopped our vistorious triumphant march to Tripoli. The best reply to his constructting a parallel universe was by Serajelalem who is in Benghazi and another twitterer whose name I forgot a Libyan abroad who put his body where Libyaahmed's mouth is and is frequently on the frontline.
Posted by Yara | April 3, 2011, 9:03 amAs Serajelalem replied, its easy to theorise when you are not the one facing tanks with an ak-47 (or in the case of one of my cousins, his fathers old hunting rifle dug up from the garden where it was buried because no one except card carrying ''revolutionaries'' are allowed to have weapons in the ''state of the armed masses'' ). Funny, now Libyaahmed is complaining that evil Nato did not communicate with the rebels earlier (he wont admit the rebels fired first either, that's just more ''negative propaganda'') basically he is having his cake and eating it too. Libyans on twitter are asking for more not less help, they complain about Erdogan's stance (he doesnt go as far as calling us shameless but check out the comments on him if you want to know what Libyans think of you and your ilk), and they complain about about Nato not being as aggressive as the coalition was which means Misrata and the West in particular are suffering more.
Posted by Yara | April 3, 2011, 9:03 amWisal, could not have said it better myself:
"I am a Palestinian and I don't care for the Iranian or Syrian regimes, but, I welcome and would ask for any assistance they might give to the resistance in Lebanon and Gaza because at the end of the day I care that the resistance continue to be armed and that the struggle against the Zionist entity continue until the day all of our lands are liberated, because I care about the preservation of Arab life. It would be great not to need the assistance of Syria, who, for example did the dirtiest of the dirty work for the Americans when they tortured Maher Arrar, but, I don't have a choice over who arms or helps to make sure we stay armed, and since I care about the preservation of the Palestinian people and the Shia in Southern Lebanon I will overlook who we Arabs get help from. Libyans have the same right and they don't have many options either. "
Bravo and ameen! Also, it is entirely possible to hate Western Imperialism and know when to use the West for your own benefit and I believe that Libyans will know exactly when to demand that Americans and others get out of their country.
Posted by Kawther | April 3, 2011, 3:01 pm"Also, it is entirely possible to hate Western Imperialism and know when to use the West for your own benefit "
Ah yes, the notion of "the enemy of my brother, who slaughters them unashamedly, is my friend when it benefits me"
Bravo indeed!
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 3, 2011, 7:48 pmI saw a video uploaded minutes ago of a tank hit by an airstrike in my father's hometown, Misrata the 3rd largest city in Libya which has ben besieged for a month. You know very well that Libyans are asking for more such airstrikes. Relatives of a baby killed in secondary explosions in an airstrike on ammuniton dump in G controlled Gharyan risked their lives to tell journalists the strikes must continue, and the family of a boy whose leg was at risk of amputation after he came to thank the downed pilot are still grateful. According to you they are shameless for wanting dignified life, being under the heel of a bloodsoaked clown is also unaccptable, so being hanged by G and dragged behind a car to trash heap instead of a grave is the only honourable option.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 5:11 pmAgain, you are refusing to answer the questions provided but I will refute your claims – especially when invoking the generalized premise that all Libyans agree or are calling on airstrikes:
Libyan Anarchist, Saoud Salem: The signs of the defeat of Libyan revolution http://bit.ly/eIte8D
Posted by Roqayah | April 1, 2011, 5:14 pmAll I need to know is that Saoud Salem saysLibyans made a mistake by fighting back and liberating the barracks with the help of soldiers disgusted by the use of weaons meaant to target tanks and heay weaponry against the citizens they are meant to protect. When Gadaffi used his army against protestors all the cities that did not succeed in defeating the local security battalion (starting with rocks and jalateena then defected soldiers with light weapons, tractors, and exploding gas cylinders) were back under Gadafi control in under a week e.g Gharyan, Mizada, Sabrata. Some that resisted continue but Zawya and Zwara were the template he was successfully retaking territory and would have suppressed the uprising by now without the airstrikes. The Libyan 'intellectuals, artists, university graduates, everyone, those who can write and those who cannot, every female and male citizen' asked for this intervention.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 5:52 pmYara, this video from Amnesty International which was just posted is of a Syrian national journalist named Rana being interrogated on state television, as you can see most people outside a particular circle of i-activists support freedom and dignity for Libyans.
Spread to your contacts.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/video-…
Posted by Wisal | April 1, 2011, 5:18 pmI saw that video on the Libyan Intifada facebook page, heartbreaking and she was so incredibly brave. I am awed that Rana (and Eman in another video) was able to stand up to that shameless propagandist Hala Al Misrati and only backed down a few times. She got them to air the revolutionary viewpoint on State TV. I loved her contemptous laugh when Hala told her there were always demonstrations in Benghazi. She has become just as much a heroine as Eman is to us Libyans. I pray that she, her father and brother are safe and hopefully out of Libya soon.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 5:41 pm@Yara You are selling Libya so cheap; to call for aid from those who’ve slaughtered millions and aided/abetted Gaddafi’s regime. You are literally asking the occupier for help and feel no shame in doing so.
Posted by Roqayah | April 1, 2011, 2:27 pmYou are selling the blood of my family for your slogans, do you understand that? They mean nothing to you, they are my relatives and it is my country. My cousins in Tripoli were the most vocal about how happy they were about these airstrikes, because they feel for those in the rest of the country. Fortunatly all my Arab friends have more humanity, thank God its just on the internet that I discovered people with such twisted ideas of 'shame'. Libyans have a reply to your shameful accusation, it is the equivalent of Moussa Ibrahim calling Eman a prostitute, and you Roqayah are exactly point for point repeating the argument of State TV anchorwoman Hala Misrati who said Eman should have saved heer dignity by dying after being raped by Gaddafi's kataib instead of shaming herself by going to the foreign media for protection.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 3:09 pmYou are selling my relatives lives and my country for slogans.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 4:06 pmRoqayyah, it is you and your friends who are 'Mouse-click couch warriors' my relatives in Tripoli (and yes we are the majority, in fact the whole population minus a couple of 1000s) 'gleefully cheered' when the UNSC vote passed, and celebrated when the bombing started because it saved our people in Benghazi and gave those in Misrata a chance to avoid Zawiya's fate. This blog would have been full of outraged posts if Eman Obaidy and her friends were abused in Saudi/other pro-American regime, or latter shelled and besieged freed cities after shooting peaceful protests with machine guns, 14.5 mm and antiaircraft guns+run over cars with tanks.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 2:42 pmYou refuse to acknowledge facts Yara, much like the majority of the emotively irrational reactionaries; you have not even responded to the fact that those who are now aiming to allegedly protect the people of Libya have funded Gaddafi. The United States and Co. cannot be honest brokers, history is certainly on the side of those against the imperialist intervention.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 3:28 pmRoqayah you refuse to look outside of the "those that armed are pretending to help" argument and not hearing that the majority of Libyans are not asking for occupation or to be the slaves of the West in the region. They are quite simply asking for anyone to kill the madman that is killing them. I am completely aware of the contents of the "Western imperialism caused all of this" argument but you deal with one thing at a time, most important things first. And in Libya the #1 goal is to get rid of the murderous dictator that is slaughtering the people. When that is accomplished goal #2 is tell the West to get the hell out and finally #3 deal with the new visionaries that previously held court for Qaddafi. Please prioritize.
Posted by Wisal | April 1, 2011, 3:43 pmWisal, your argument falls flat with me sir, I do apologize. Not a single one of you will answer the simplest of question, instead you have spent your time creating an ever-growing plot-line with not a single fact.
If you were "aware" of the broad scope of Western imperialism I would only assume that you could easily understand that the United States of America, NATO et al. cannot be honest brokers.
You are setting up priorities: Remove Gaddafi, Attend to Western Imperialism, Deal with "new visionaries".
Strangely enough the West does not agree with any part of your ideal. Removing Gaddafi is not even on their agenda.
"Gaddafi is not a target" http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-…
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 3:49 pmWisal is a female name and I don't care what the West agrees with or not, I am speaking of what the priorities of Libyans should be. Your comment about going to Benghazi and telling them that they shouldn't accept help from x, y and z is absurd. Grow up and grow a heart. Over and out.
Posted by Wisal | April 1, 2011, 3:57 pmMy apologies, ma'am. I certainly do have a heart, all I am asking is for evidence. It is seemingly easier to go on a tangent than support any of what you say.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 3:59 pm'those against the imperialist intervention' have funded armed and supported Gaddafi, and I already summarised his status as hero waxing and waning in 'anti-imperialist' camp according not to how he treated us Libyans, but according to his relations to the west.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 3:59 pmIt is very much in accordance with how he has persecuted Libyans and how the West has not only know of said persecution but done all in its power to aid his brutes in further subjugating the people of Libya; both go hand in hand.
Posted by Roqayah | April 1, 2011, 4:03 pmTypical make fact up, i am Libyan my faher and uncle were tortured and imprsioned in the 70s and 80s for demonstrating, Gaddafi was hated by the west then and beloved of 'anti-imperialists' and 'leftists' who did 'all in their power to aid his brutes in further subjugating the people of Libya' . This is not Saddam who was the west's ally (well it was a dual containment policy as Martin Indyk said so they covertly armed Iran too) when he was at his worst.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 5:59 pmI don't see the comment here now, but I subscribed to this topic by email and I got a comment from Yara that criticized, "….easily-led liberals like you'. Sick, delusional, disonnected from reality, not caring for human cost of their theories…who do they remind me of again?"
Maybe they remind you of the millions of dead Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Timorese, Guatemalans, Argentinians, Serbs, Rwandans, Congolese, and others killed by the US or by US-armed or supported death squads, mercenaries, and militaries. Only the liberals you despise would mention those martyrs–for neocons and imperialists, the price was worth it. We'll soon be adding Libyans to the long list of those we liberals mourn, but at least we tried to warn you.
Posted by @fubarista | April 1, 2011, 2:42 pmExactly Fubarista. You hit the nail on the head.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 3:30 pm"Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Timorese, Guatemalans, Argentinians, Serbs, Rwandans, Congolese, and others"
So in order to be completely fair, we should add Libyans to the list? Nice.
Posted by Wisal | April 1, 2011, 3:48 pmThe funny thing is they know Gaddafi had been rehabilitated and signed unfair oil contracts with Western companies based on bribes to his sons, but just like the West they complain of they are ready to switch sides on a dime. Gaddafi was a hero to the left when he was at his worst in internal repression, hated after he made a deal with the west, and now the West wants him gone some lionize him while the majority ignore, deny or excuse his atrocities to focus their outrage and ridicule on Libyan opposition. No wonder when they actually have power no one is bloodier than people who subscribe to this POV. The West had the deals they wanted on oil construction and immigration but they refused to continue to deal with G after he brutally suppressed Libyans on such a large scale. They waited to be sure his rule was threatened before they spoke out against him but in the end they intervened to prevent the suppression of the uprising. All people like Roqqayah, Angry Arab, Nabila Ramadani, George Galloway do is criticise and never offer alternatives, and a look at the finances of the last two shows the financial corruption they are capable of.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 2:45 pmThe burden of proof is on you Yara, it is you who must factually support a call to militarily intercede. Your stories, though stirring, are not factual contentions which corroborate the UN-backed no-fly zone, air-strikes and CIA invasion. I have posted facts, time and time again, while you continue to provide nothing to substantiate your pro-interventionist hype.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 3:30 pmFor Kabobfest to allow people to question whether there are atrocities occurring against Libyans at the hands of Qaddafi is as offensive as ADC having Ray Hanania on their Board of Directors. Two sad extremes of what is tolerated amongst Arabs in regards to Arabs. Have a nice weekend all.
Posted by Wisal | April 1, 2011, 3:50 pmIt is a simple set of questions:
1. Can the United States of America, NATO et al. be honest brokers?
2. Who bolstered/aided/abetted Gadaffi’s regime?
3. Why is Gaddafi not a target of the military intervention?
Instead of answering any of the above or attempting to provide evidence to substantiate any of your claims whatsoever you continue to drop red herrings; going so far as to call my position callous.
Yes, how dare we question a massive, large-scale intervention which involves imperialist empires who all have deeply historical love-love relationships with colonization.
Evidence please, I have heard enough emotion. I want evidence.
Posted by Roqayah | April 1, 2011, 3:57 pmAgain thank you
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 4:34 pmI don’t recall Kabobfest alleging that Gaddafi isn’t committing atrocities. This isn’t what this debate is about; it’s bout whether or not these atrocities require the intervention of the West and all that may entail.
Overall this is an interesting dialogue-everyoe seems to understand the dangers of this intervention and the imperialistic agenda behind it. The point of contention is whether or not the Libyan people will be able to utilize the West in their fight while holding off it’s attempts to control post-Gaddafi Libya.
Posted by MohammadKF | April 1, 2011, 5:40 pmWell that's not entirely accurate Mohammad, the article states that it is better to die with dignity than live in shame. So for some of us the argument is about whether Libyans can shake off the Western forces once Qaddafi is got rid of, for others, it seems that the primary concern is that Libyans die with "dignity."
Posted by Wisal | April 2, 2011, 11:40 amI think you actually managed to shock me, after a month of reading this stuff by Serbs, Latin Americans, Pan-Africanists…its a Lebanese who reaches a new low in contempt for Libyan lives and suffering. Congratulations.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 4:01 pmYou unfortunately managed to bore me; either substantiate your claims or concede that you cannot.
I hold no contempt for any people, be it Libyans struggling to liberate their homeland or otherwise. I respect all men, women and child who fight, tooth and nail, to free themselves from the shackles of subjugation.
Again, feel free to read the documents I have provided – along with this http://zeroanthropology.net/2011/03/18/the-libyan-revolution-is-dead-notes-for-an-autopsy/
There are many more questions the author provides which have not been answered by the pro-interventionist camp.
Posted by Roqayah | April 1, 2011, 4:07 pmExcellent Article. Well done Roqayah. As Always, Well Done.
Posted by Bashar Hamad | April 1, 2011, 3:18 pm"Nasrallah accepts support from whomever" that is a factually incorrect statement as I have already proven.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 3:36 pmWhomever being Iran via Syria and this is not a condemnation nor a criticism of the Sayyed or of Hezbullah but just stating a fact. If you want to argue that this is not the case then please go ahead but don't expect me to engage such silly conversations.
Posted by Wisal | April 1, 2011, 3:47 pmI don't. I expect you to go along with this parade of hype, not providing an iota of evidence.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 3:51 pmThank you Wisal, I really appreciate you standing up for Libyans. I am sorry for being emotional but really these posters are spitting on the grave of my cousin (God knows how many others we lost, like I said they did not tell us we just found his photo in a martyr tribute video) and all the Libyans who sacrificed to free our country by saying accepting Western airstrikes to prevent what was an ineviable return to Gaddafi's renewed ferocious rule and the revenge sprees he so enjoys is 'shameful'.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 3:53 pmAccepting Western intervention was to (willingly or unwillingly) sacrifice your country, nothing less.
May your cousin and all of the martyrs of the Libyan Revolution rest in peace.
My scratching the surface for evidence should not be damned in such a way as to say I spit on any martyrs grave, this is a blatant attempt to smear me.
Posted by Roqayah | April 1, 2011, 4:13 pmNo apologies necessary Yara, as a Palestinian I recognize how frustrating it is to watch the value of life debated away. For us, by the Zionists, for you, unfortunately by other Arabs.
Posted by Wisal | April 1, 2011, 4:31 pmThe shameless use of the concept of shame repeats Gaddafist propaganda defamaming Eman, and Libyans are not alone in noticing this. Dima Khatib on twitter said she personifyied Libya, needing to resort to foreigners to save herself from abuse. Dima Khatib is suspicious of intervention and a fan of Chavez but unlike most here she is compassionate enough to acknowledge our suffering, and respectful enough to respect our decisions. This article and Roqayah's comment on me 'asking the occupier for help and feel no shame in doing so' on the other hand repeats the logic of Hala Al Misrati accusation against Eman, she should have died after being raped by Gaddafi's Kataib, instead of 'shaming herself' by going to foreign journalsits for protection.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 4:18 pmYara, you keep evading my call for evidence. You choose to deflect and therein have chosen to create another rash laundry list of red herrings, this time accusing me of following the same illogical and perverse contentions as the rapists of Eman; I abhor the Gaddafi regime to the same extent I do those who have helped him remain in his throne. It is a fairly simple concept to grasp.
I respect the fact that you hold a decision though I do not respect the decision you have made. Yes, it is yours to make but I also have the right to passionately disagree, as I have already done.
Have you taken the liberty to even peruse any of the documents I have cited? Can you not simply answer the few questions I have provided?
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 4:22 pmThis is the second time a strongly worded comment goes missing, if someone is deleting them then the article and comments whic defame Libyans should be deleted too, Roqayah ays I am selling my country cheap and her whole 'argumet' is that our choices mean we lack dignity and have no sense f shame, but my characterising this as shameless disrespect and spitting on the grave of our martyrs (including my cousin) gets deleted?
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 4:25 pmWho is deleting comments? The post author or Kabobfest?
Posted by Wisal | April 1, 2011, 4:29 pmI can't delete any comment but my own. KABOBFest has supreme authority in this area. Also, I have no reason to delete a single comment. I have made my case.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 4:34 pm"…The article and comments whic defame Libyans should be deleted too"
That is your only answer to calls for evidence.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 4:30 pmAw the schoolmistress is here, I have already pointed out your fact that do not need refuting it is patently ridiculous to claim that Gaddafi with his Soviet+Russian army is killing us with western weapons, and denial reaches new lows by claiming theintervention has not saved lives and given the revolution a chance at toppling Gadafi, when our attempts in 70s, 80s and 90s (descreasing in number and effectiveness each decade) were always brutally crushed and revenge taken on families, friends and aquaintences. Notice Libyans who complain instead of just being thankful are asking for MORE airstrikes.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 5:33 pmThank you Wisal for standing up for Libyans, I really appreciate it. I have heard things here that surpass what Serbs are saying in denigrating the Libyan revolution, despite the fact that they at least have reason as Gaddafi supported their massacres in Bosnia and Kosovo.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 4:29 pmDon't thank me Yara. It's horrible enough to watch Zionists debate the price of our lives and freedom but worse to see a hierarchy assigned by Arabs. I'm uncomfortable with the argument that its hypocritical for the West to help Libya and not Palestinians. While the argument around the hypocrisy is true, I have yet to come across a Palestinian or Arab outside of the internet that thinks Libyans should die because of that double standard. Goodnight.
Posted by Wisal | April 1, 2011, 4:42 pmCan't any of you answer a single question I have provided? Can't you read any of the documents and provide substantiation for a single point you have made?
This issue is out of everyones comfort zone; watching our people become charred body parts, being slaughtered en masse is an uncomfortable issue to deal with. Cross-examining the military intervention is not what should make you "uncomfortable".
The argument I provide within my article surpasses even the hypocrisy of the West when it comes to Palestine – it is in respect to the Wests' hypocrisy in respect to all people of the world who have had to suffer due to their brutal colonialist policies.
My questions remain unanswered.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 1, 2011, 4:46 pmThank you for standing up for Libyans, I have heard stuff here that makes what Serbs (who love Gaddafi for supporting their massacres in Bosnai and Kosovo) say to denigrate our revolution seem mild by comparison.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 4:41 pmWisal wrote: "And in Libya the #1 goal is to get rid of the murderous dictator that is slaughtering the people. When that is accomplished goal #2 is tell the West to get the hell out and finally #3 deal with the new visionaries that previously held court for Qaddafi. Please prioritize."
If you didn't think that the West was stronger than Gaddafi, then you wouldn't have asked for their help to get rid of Gaddafi. If they're stronger than Gaddafi, they'll be harder to get rid of. Since you couldn't even get rid of Gaddafi by yourselves, you obviously won't be able to get rid of a much stronger West by yourselves. So whose help will you ask for to get rid of the West?
Posted by @fubarista | April 1, 2011, 5:34 pmRoqayah, your piece was spot on. I am one of many who is sifting through the comments and are left with no answers being given by the likes of Yara. It is sad, how they mock you yet provide no proof to at least hush the questions. great work
Posted by Evidence | April 1, 2011, 6:02 pmI think this discussion brilliantly illustrates the very real divide between idealism/ideas [for lack of a better word] and reality. I am vehemently anti-imperialist, but also at the same time am aware that often times people will call for vessels of imperialism to be their vessels of liberation from 'localized' tyranny – because it is perceived as the most effective route (and we find these instances across recent history, such as in Rwanda where people begged for international involvement but the humanitarians of the world ran in the opposite direction until shame of their hypocrisy could no longer be digested by them). It is an uncomfortable thought, but the decolonized can just as easily bring themselves back into colonization – that is an inherent part of their agency, that cannot be refuted or condemned in and of itself. Mind you, when colonialist and imperialist structures have not been dismantled the question does remain how much control of their agency do they, in fact, have..
Posted by SanaKF | April 1, 2011, 6:50 pmThanks for an excellent piece, Roqayeh. Surely even cruise missile liberals are aware that Western military interventions are not altruistic endeavors by benign and compassionate states. They are acts of military aggression undertaken to advance the interests of the ruling elites of Western nations, and when it comes to the Middle East, also of Israel. There are no other motivations. Obama, Hillary, Sarkozy and the rest of the crew care no more about saving Libyan lives than they do Bahraini lives. If the West takes sides in any struggle anywhere, it can only mean that Western leaders feel they have found a partner within that struggle that will represent their interests when the dust settles.
The assertion that we are there to save lives is a lie. Even if it were true, the idea of keeping Libyans from killing other Libyans by killing Libyans doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We have seen many obviously exaggerated claims of atrocities, massacres, "rape as a weapon of war" and other alleged crimes of the Qaddafi regime, but no real independent confirmation or evidence of any of this. Western nations and the mass media always engage in an orgy of atrocity allegations whenever the West targets another country for destruction, and in the majority of cases, these claims later prove to be complete fabrications or grotesque exaggerations. The Western media and Al Jazeera have reported entire neighborhoods in Tripoli leveled to the ground, mosques and hospitals in Benghazi destroyed, massive battles being fought and countless massacres. Obama repeated these allegations in his speech. Yet we have received no evidence or independent confirmation of any of this. Surely, some journalist could maybe bother to photograph a destroyed mosque or two?
Even if all this were true, the history of Western interventions in multiple countries over the last 50 years speaks for itself. They usually result in more death, destruction, economic deprivation and tyranny than would have been the case had the existing government been left in place. See Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indochina and Central America as examples. I marvel at the kind of orientalist thinking that fails to see any means of resolving conflicts in the Middle East other than force of violence (Arabs only understand one thing) and which see the West as being the only party with the moral legitimacy to shoulder the "moral responsibility" of using war as a means of policing the world (White Man's Burden). I thought the job of the UN was to resolve conflicts through negotiation, not take sides in the internal affairs of nations (which is a violation of its mandate).
Sometime during this mess I seem to recall the Latin Americans offering the only solution that could have resolved this conflict without further bloodshed and maybe preserved Libyan sovereignty in the process, but the cruise missile liberals and their masters in Washington have destroyed any possibility of that happening now.
Posted by Sean2009 | April 1, 2011, 6:57 pm'I seem to recall the Latin Americans offering the only solution that could have resolved this conflict without further bloodshed and maybe preserved Libyan sovereignty in the process' That just sums up the crowd here, delusional.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 7:22 pmYara, why can you not prove a single assertion of yours while I support my own with facts? You are using ad hominem attacks in place of actual substance.
Personal stories are great, facts and historical documentation would be better.
Posted by Roqayah | April 1, 2011, 9:51 pmYour facts r.e Gaddafi and West are hilarious as I have pointed out 4 times now, your accusations fit China and Russia who provided the bulk arms you accuse the West of providing and supported Gaddafi at his most bloody, but that's nothing to be criticzied in fact you guys think China and Russia betrayed their responsibility to veto the UNSC to protect civilians. Instead of the mainly Soviet era muntions we see on TV screens and IDed by Libyans as kiling civilians lets look over there at what the West started selling after 2003. Anyway as I said even if those were the Abrams tanks Khamis was dreaming of buying (wouldn't that have made a nice propaganda point for you) that becomes irrelevant, the airstrikes stopped the march on Benghazi and my aunts were saved from shelling and the survivors won't be hanged for being the family of a martyr. Sad for you, great for me. I can't get over the sick points you make 'better to hang' indeed.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 10:58 pmYou can’t refute my “sick points” either, strange how your twisted logic works.
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 12:44 am#Fact Lives were saved by the intervention #Fact West only recently started selling him weapons. Your 'facts' are ideology as I have repeatedly said #Fact No one except this crowd would seriously claim Soviet tanks and Grad missiles that are killing us are western arms #Fact Even if they were Abrams tanks which Khamis Gaddafi dreamed of buying (wouldn't that have made a nice peopaganda point for you) #Fact French airstrikes hitting the column advancing on Benghazi saved my aunts and their kids lives, I am glad they weren't shelled and besieged into submission and then surviving activists and martyrs relatives hanged or diappeared, but this is a cause for much regret on this blog. No surprise, after all the premise of the article is that Libyans should go hang.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 11:36 pm@Sean 1 Seriousy what sort of moral universe do you guys live in? '' some journalist could maybe bother to photograph a destroyed mosque or two? '' Mosque- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQVeLelLYts (that's jsut one, there are plenty more photgraphs from other mosques in Misrata, as well as video from Zawya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMUYNH2qHSo and Ajdabya)
Hospital -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqtVzWIvHKs&feature=related (again just an example, they shelled the main hospital an 2 clinics in Misrata leading to evacutaions, there is a mosque and attacheed clinic sheled next to each ther in Zawya and again in Ajdabya both photograhed and filmed)
Kids – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFeXtT3LPSA
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 12:13 amThe videos you show prove nothing. They give no context, or proof of who is doing the damage to the structures in question, or why. We have no idea who killed the children in that video. It could have been NATO, the rebels, or the Libyan army.
Al Jazeera claims that hospitals and mosques were deliberately "destroyed" by "bombs." None of that looks like the kind of damage a direct hit by a 500lb bomb would do. The videos you show are of a mosque and what appears to be a clinic that have been damaged in the fighting, with no context or proof of who did the damage, or under what circumstances. In the mosque minaret video, you can clearly see what appears to be an RPG being fired from the minaret at 29 seconds. The minaret itself seems to be under direct fire by tanks, rather than indirect fire by artillery. The other video shows only the minaret itself destroyed, and not the whole mosque. If the minaret was being used by snipers or for RPG fire, it was a legitimate military target. Even so, the Libyan army clearly didn't destroy the entire mosque, as they would have if that was their intent. We also don't know who was firing from or at the mosque from this video.
The hospital video doesn't show that much damage. There are reports of heavy NATO bombing around an abandoned hospital being used by the Libyan army as a base, and a NATO bomb damaging a hospital in Misrata. Whether this is either of the hospitals in question it is impossible to tell from the video, or who damaged the hospital.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Misrata http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=vi…
The moral universe I live in is one in which I am not willing to see an entire country destroyed to benefit a handful of US-backed rebels led by ex-Qaddafi cronies and a CIA-groomed military commander. I am not willing to see the president of my country assume dictatorial powers to attack a dictator in another country. I live in a world where lies are used to sell wars, and all claims made during wars, particularly by the media or by the combatants themselves, need to be subjected to intense scrutiny, and not used as a catch-all excuse for Western military intervention.
Posted by Sean2009 | April 2, 2011, 10:06 am'' It could have been NATO, the rebels, or the Libyan army'' one of the families is Abu Fnas our family friends 4 kids lost and father going crazy he says the Libyan army killed them but what does he know. I have no words to describe your ''morality''. Ofcourse Misrata residents filmed themselves shooting at their own mosque with weapons they don't have. But all the worlds media including freelance journalists + tweets and youtube videos from inside Libya +my relatives and friends are wrong, Sean and Gaddafi propagandists Moussa Ibrahim who makes the same arguments point for point the in replies to journalists questions are the only ones impartial enough to see the truth. ''
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 10:52 am''The hospital doesnt show much damage'' do you listen to yourself? If there was a huge gaping hole in the wall of a hospital in Gaza what would you say? If you heard phonecalls from Fallujah describing atatcks on hospitals and mosques? You do know that Gaddafi said the West was OK with Gaza and Fallujah to put down a rebellion so I am allowed to do the same? That he said Israel had to use tanks to put down extremists in Gaza and so do I? I am not going to bother finding the videos of the toddler with half his face torn off as a result of the attack on the hospital in Misrata, after all maybe the residents of misrata who picked up weapons to prevent the reocuppation of their town like Gharyan and Mizda (sorry the handful of CIA rebels who are holding the majority of pro-gaddafi/neutral residents hostage) did it or else Nato who my relatives are shamelessly asking for more ''Western military intervention'' to save them from their own leaders army.
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 11:01 amI have seen nothing to indicate Qaddafi has engaged in wholesale attacks against civilian targets as occurred in Gaza, Lebanon or Fallujah. In the mosque video you provided, I see someone firing an RPG from a minaret. This is a violation of the rules of war which prohibit combatants from using mosques, hospitals schools and other critical civilian structures for combat operations. It is also prohibited to attack these structures, unless they are being used for combat purposes, at which point they may be attacked if no civilians are present, and so long as the attack is proportional. Whoever is shooting at the minaret is not violating the rules of war. They are using a direct fire weapon to target the minaret, and once it is destroyed, do not cause further destruction to the mosque. Again, the video evidence is pretty clear here.
You can call this apologetics if you like, but it is simple fact. I am not saying that Qaddafi hasn't attacked civilians willfully or committed massacres. I am in no position to make such a claim. I am saying I have seen no evidence of this. By contrast, I saw tons of evidence of this in Gaza and Lebanon, to where only a lunatic or a liar could deny it. I have questioned why the media has made these claims without evidence when evidence should be easy to obtain. A 500lb bomb or 155mm artillery shell doesn't leave a little hole in the wall. They completely destroy buildings, and the evidence of the use of these weapons will be obvious and unmistakable. Even so, their use is not prohibited in warfare, only if they are willfully used to kill civilians.
If Qaddafi were willfully targeting mosques for destruction, he would have easily destroyed them totally and there would be dozens of examples of this, as was the case in Gaza, where multiple mosques were completely obliterated. You've shown me a video of one damaged minaret from which a guy was firing an RPG. Sorry, but this just doesn't constitute convincing evidence of the claims being made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUCKaVE38fE&fe…
Posted by Sean2009 | April 2, 2011, 4:00 pmYou are now on record twice as minimising the shelling of a hospital wall, and ignoring the clear evidence of shelling residential areas resulting in this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFeXtT3LPSA and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOc9c_4B2fA and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLWoUA1FOxA. I have twice said that the last family are our family friends and their father who was there says his children were killed by Gaddafi forces, you continue to say there is no evidence who did this.
Posted by Yara | April 3, 2011, 7:55 amThere are as said in the comment above many hospitals destroyed, I mentioned some of the towns and a google search as well as YT suggested videos shows more. I pointt out again that everything you said echoes what was said by Zionists and neocons about Fallujah, Gaza and Lebanon and they were proved right in a few isolated cases when it was true that shots were fired from mosques and residential areas because the resistance was done by residents were defending their towns. That still does not justify the killing of innocents and destruction of infrastructure that occured. Shelling hospitals and residential areas, besieging civilians and cutting of medical aid food electricity and now sewage treatment is a crime of war. So is kidnapping and torturing (including rape) and murdering activists and those contacting the media.
Posted by Yara | April 3, 2011, 7:55 amThe hospital is not the main hospital which is not abandoned but under maintanence for 3 years when it serves 3rd largest Libyan city, oil rich country whose citizens go to poorer neighbours like Tunisia for more advanced healthcare. It's a childrens hospital, and with another clinic was attacked by Gaddafi forces and had to be evacutated. Gaddafi forces also attacked and stationed tanks outside the main hospital and the CIA backed rebels risked their lives to smuggle out families from area to escape shelling. They called for airstrikes on the forces outside the empty main hospital, whcih were delayed leading to more deaths from Gaddafi forces (not that you care) until the tanks were taken out. Your delusional universe is one where Libyans (a handful) who want to get rid of Gaddafi are destroying their country, where Nato bombing those explicitly saying they will cleans country of oppostion rats is the problem.
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 11:08 amYara,
I'm beginning to wonder if there is a point in trying to have discussions with people questioning whether Qaddafi's atrocities have in fact occurred or not. I recently followed another discussion between self proclaimed leftists arguing about whether Eman was raped or not. Some saying they believed government propaganda about her being a drunken prostitute. I much prefer listening to the opinions of leftists like Azmi Bishara who offers cautious yet humane opinions on western intervention in Libya.
Posted by Wisal | April 2, 2011, 11:59 am@ Sean 2 Not that this makes the sightest difference as you make clear, you don't care it its true or not although you would know all the facebook and youtube pages and vicariously feed on outrage if the target was aproppriate. Fine O.K so far, but then you insist on claiming the moral highground, arguing that only those that deny reality are in possession of the truth, and finally insult and denigrate my people who are seeking a chance at a government where we can sometimess demonstrate, a semblance of a free media, even sham elections for the first tim in 42 years, a constituion, an atempt at institutions instead of deliberate chaos to facilitate stealing at increible levels, belonging to political parties and opposition without being called stray and domesticated dogs and shot at home and abroad
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 12:13 amAnd of course the CIA has arrived to help in the pseudo-humanitarian intervention http://nyti.ms/iiQlY0
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 12:43 amThat's quite a collection of strawmen and wild accusations you have there. I do not claim the moral highground, whatever that is. There is no moral highground here. It would be nice to see a true democracy emerge in Libya, but I don't see the US and its lackeys delivering democracy in a pretty basket anytime soon. I see them bringing the same level of death and destruction to Libya as they brought to Iraq and Afghanistan. A Libya ruled by Qaddafi may be a lesser evil than a Libya burned to the ground, partitioned, and controlled by US-backed thugs. A peaceful transition of power would be better still, but NATO obviously doesn't want to see its "raison de guerre" slip away that easily. Anyone who can't see this is a bloody fool.
Posted by Sean2009 | April 2, 2011, 10:20 am1)the ''strawmen and wild accusations'' are yours = Your claim that there was a chance for a ''peaceful transition of power'' + your saying that Libyans were making wild propaganda accusations that mosques were shelled and civilians killed by army weaponry not police I provided proof of atrocities, which you ofcourse ignore they are irrelevant. Like the poster you would rather see us hanged by Gaddafi
2) ''death and destruction'' are being rained down on us by Gaddafi forces not Nato, without them he would be back in control and on a revenge spree, ''Anyone who can't see this is a bloody fool''
3) ''A Libya ruled by Qaddafi may be a lesser evil'' of course it is, your ideology trumps Libyan lives as always. Leftists and anti-imperialists hailed him from 1976 when his brutality was at its worst, and turned agaisnt him when he started ''reforming'' as he was closer to the West.
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 10:37 amYour evidence was inadequate and showed a violation of the rules of war by what appeared to be a rebel. Yours are not the only claims of war crimes, atrocities and collateral damage occurring, either. There have been numerous reports of rebels attacking and killing black Africans on the suspicion that they must be Qaddafi mercenaries. There have been reports of the rebels maintaining kill lists of Qaddafi supporters and executing them where they find them. I give these reports the same credibility as yours until I have seen evidence that they are true. I have seen reports of NATO casualties by credible sources such as Vatican emissaries. I have also seen videos of lynchings of African mercenaries and executions of Libyan soldiers, so forgive me if I have trouble figuring out who the "good guys" here are.
Warning: extremely graphic images in the linked videos. http://alive.in/libya/2011/02/20/african-mercenar…
"The anti-Gaddafi force’s lack of any democratic credentials and mass support is evident in their reliance on foreign imperial armed forces to bring them to power and their subservience to imperial demands. Their abuse and persecution of immigrant workers from Asia, Turkey and especially sub-Sahara Africa, as well as black Libyan citizens, is well documented in the international press. Their brutal treatment of black Libyans, falsely accused of being Gaddafi’s “mercenaries” , includes torture, mutilation and horrific executions, does not auger well for the advent of a new democratic order, or even the revival of an economy, which has been dependent on immigrant labor, let alone a unified country with national institutions and a national economy."
http://www.lahaine.org/petras/index.php?p=1847&am…
NATO Forces Accidentally Kill 15 Libyan Rebels, Injure 7 http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nato-forces-kill-1…
Posted by Sean2009 | April 2, 2011, 4:28 pmThe Vatican representative in Libya has always as every Libyan knows been a Gaddafi supporter who enjoys his money (this is a police state, even Jazzeera's reporter in Tripoli Khaled Dib who was recently fired when this was proved was employed by Gaddafi's ''revolutionary comittees''), but ofcourse their will be collateral damage. That happened in the Libyan farming area called Libyar who were injured during the pilot rescue including the one who might lose his leg were thankful because these airstrikes saved them and their revolution. The relatives of a baby killed in a secondary explosion when an arms dump was destroyed risked his life by telling journalists in Gaddafi controlled Gherian that the strikes must continue.
Posted by Yara | April 3, 2011, 8:04 amUp to now, I'd have allowed that your emotionalism on this issue was understandable, given that it is your countrymen that are doing the dying here. Now it is clear to me your concern for civilian casualties is completely empty–you are not the slightest bit concerned about the many civilians that have been and will be killed by NATO, or the people being killed by the rebels. You even use the perverse language of the Pentagon thugs your self-appointed leaders have inflicted on your fellow countrymen by calling the dead "collateral damage" as if those killed by accident are any less dead than those killed on purpose. You repeat the absurdist claims of Al Jazeera that the people whose families are being killed or wounded have no problem with it. Apparently, only death-by-Qaddafi counts. You of course will grant no such allowance to the Libyan army, whose combat operations may also result in "collateral damage."
The only dead civilians that seem to matter to you are the ones who you can pin on Qaddafi and use to advance your agenda of getting the West to fight your war for you, which they will never do. They will fight your war for themselves, and to advance their own interests.
The only way this thing can be resolved is with a cease-fire and peace agreement. So long as combat continues, people will continue to die. That is the way wars works, as any child knows. The rebels never had a chance against Qaddafi and were planning from day one to bring NATO in to finish the job for them, as they have now admitted. The West has its own agenda here and if it's anything like its agenda in 100 other conflicts up till now, your country is well on the path to its destruction and loss of sovereignty. Like the Iraqis who invited the US in to topple Saddam, you may live to regret what you asked for, if you survive.
Posted by Sean2009 | April 3, 2011, 1:33 pm4) My words are there, twist them as you like I did not say we would have an ideal state I said we '' are seeking a chance at a government where we can sometimess demonstrate, a semblance of a free media, even sham elections for the first tim in 42 years, a constituion, an atempt at institutions instead of deliberate chaos to facilitate stealing at increible levels, belonging to political parties and opposition without being called stray and domesticated dogs and shot at home and abroad '' that is the position of Libyans and that is the moral highround. You know very well that not one Arab revolution (whether despot is beloved or hated by the west) will deliver ''democracy in a pretty basket anytime soon'' its a long struggle to a flawed goal, but we will not have a lifetime leader with the prospect of his son Saif inheriting presented as reform.
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 10:44 amMockery is denigrating Libyans fighting to get rid of a man who has ruled us since he was 27 because they can't defeat his private )not national) army (kataib Gaddafi). Mockery is then dismissing Libyans like Soad and me as emotional for reporting what is happening inside and how Libyans are desperately grateful that Gaddafi's advance was stopped. Mockery is taking the tone of the font of all truth when your create an ideologially appropriate but completely fictional version of the West relation to the regime (if they had in fact supported and armed him as they were planning to do it would still be irrelevant if they then bombed his armour outside Benghazi) #Fact Gaddafi's battalions use Soviet and Russian not Western arms #Fact West was Gaddafi's enemy during his most repressive brutal period when he was a leftist hero
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 7:11 pmYou may be as grateful as you like and use as much emotive rhetoric as you please. The fact that you refuse to answer a single question is most telling. The fact that you deflect and dance around key historical precedence is quite befuddling. The fact that you choose to ignore all of my examples, all links etc. is simply pathetic.
Posted by Roqayah | April 1, 2011, 9:54 pmRoqayah,
Please reconsider whether you want to condemn Libyans for using emotional rhetoric when discussing what is currently occurring in their country. Your continued mockery of the emotions they experience feels shockingly cold.
Posted by Wisal | April 2, 2011, 12:01 pm#Fact If West had not taken stance against Gaddafi his atrocities would be another reason for your outrage, but now you focus on the rebels as they distort your 1 dimensional world view just as Kosovo and Bosnia did #Fact West could have looked the other way as the revolt was suppresed and retained lucrative contracts gained without bidding due to bribes, a regime cooperating on terror and immigration…I could go on but you are not interested in facts you explicitly said you would rather watch something edifying like the massacres and hanging of the Italian colonisation which Gaddafi has shown himself capable of imitating (1200 prisoners killed in 3 hours, spectacular hangings too) so you can enjoy being comfortably outraged at the Western-backing/silence. Since Libyans refused this fate and asked – no begged – for intervention you are reduced to attacking those opposing Gaddafi.
Posted by Yara | April 1, 2011, 7:11 pmYara, everyone knows what Gaddafi is capable of and we abhor it. We also know what Western blocs are capable of, yet you fan away such cross-examination by injected more stories.
Posted by Roqayah | April 1, 2011, 9:58 pmYara, why don't you submit a guest post to counter Roqayyah?
Posted by MohammadKF | April 1, 2011, 10:19 pmI agree with Mohammad. I would actually enjoy reading a refutation of my piece.
Posted by Roqayah | April 1, 2011, 11:10 pmThat's an excellent suggestion, Yara, I look forward to reading that and hope that you take Mohammad up on his offer.
Posted by Wisal | April 2, 2011, 12:02 pm1)The amount of hate I now feel for everyone who has anything to do with Kabobfest and who subscribes to this inhuman ideology would chock you. It's no coincidence that the only Libyans on this page, Soad and I, used the words sick to describe what we are reading (and the voting). Soad gave up, but I am going to reply to every post and comment denigrating my people. I naturally have no intention of contributing to a blog which posts a shameless article whose premise is that Libyans should go hang and whose argument is that Libyans (and I repeat the parallel with Eman Obaidy) are shameless because they asked for foreign help.
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 2:39 pm2) I already said that I have no problem with arguments against foreign intervention by Dima Khatib (or Azmi Bshara – thank you for reminding me of him Wisal), I am however physically sickened by the heartless selfcongratualtory arrogance of Roqayah and the disgusting denials of Gaddafi crimes that Sean and Faburista put forth. Both Azmi and Dima acknowledge the facts instead of inhabiting a parallel universe where Gaddafi is killing us with Western arms and the airstrikes did not save lives and prevent the reoccupation of cities (or inSean's case think that Gaddafi was freeing the cities from a handful of CIA backed rebels). They do not call on Libyans to march off to the gallows to provide them with an edifying spectacle, nor suggest that we should negotiate a ''peaceful transition'' led by Saif (rape the women of Benghazi) Gaddafi, with the impartial arbitration of Gaddafi senior's buddy in Latin America. Soad said it best ''SICK PEOPLE''.
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 2:43 pmAnswer the simplest question: Can the United States of America, NATO et al. be honest brokers in provided said humanitarian intervention? Why or why not.
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 2, 2011, 3:12 pmFor the 3rd time, with the latest in the comment you are replying to ''I already said that I have no problem with arguments against foreign intervention'' (nor am I interested in countering them except by saying that they have saved cities from falling and the oppostion from being wiped out). I have a serious problem with the morally repugnant way you and your ilk make your argument, and particularly with the way you construct an alternative reality to grind your anti-Western axe. You ignore Gaddafi to focus your outrage on the rebels and Nato, and when you are forced to mention him it is to declare he is killing us with Western vs Soviet/Russian/DRK arms and that West made deals with him (ignoring that this means they need not have intervened).
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 4:12 pmYou have reading comprehension + fact denial caused by the anti-west-right-or-wrong POV that led you to write an article shaming Libyans for not dying with dignity instead of asking for foreign help. The same led you to shamelessly recommend a ridiculously arrogant and whiny (berating Libyans who are dying everyday for '' their lack of solidarity, or even passing concern'' with the writer and fellow ideologues) article writing and 'autopsy' on the revolution my relatives are fighting and dying for (I heard today that 3 more cousins and my uncle's wife and daughter are missing).
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 4:12 pmThe western intervention in Libya has loosely followed the template that recent western imperialist coalition wars have followed. Rousing emotional appeals to publc sentiments based upon fabrications, faulty intelligence or hollow humanitarian concerns are once again used to rally international and public support for sanitary military intervention. The casus belli invariably rely upon recent or long shuttered genocides, human rights violations or the standard soporific of terrorism. These hypocritical justifications invariably overlook prior western complicity, indifference and outwardly or thinly veiled racist agitation propaganda.
The cost, promises of limited timelines and scale of intervention are blithely understated and naively optimistic. Minority opposition to the war is ignored outright or sidelined as being indifferent to the stated need for immediate action. Without exception, deeper inquiry reveals gross intelligence failures, conspiratorial deceits and previously undisclosed CIA connections to the outcast regime.
An additional casualty of these wars is the ongoing assault upon the cultural lexicon. Wars become human interventions, civilian casualties become collateral damage, illegal kidnappings and torture become human renditions. Most egregiously, war crimes become isolated incidents rather than systematically sanctioned rituals. Appeals for restraint and deliberation are assailed as examples of moral failure and are summarily dismissed with meaningless rhetoric, slogans or epithets.
As the war effort ramps up, civil infrastructure is destroyed, depleted uranium is salted upon the earth, massacres occur and the war morphs into a long term occupation resulting in a failed state. The coalescence of an organized decentralized resistance effort is reframed as terrorism and becomes the new focus and justification for ongoing military operations and occupation.
One of the glaring omissions within the western war narrative is the relationship between regional
instability and the prior construction of artificial states. The linkages between oppression, instability, resistance and terrorism are denied and propagandized. Logical relationships between oppression and unrest are rendered inconceivable and deemed naively sympathetic to a predefined enemy with no legitimate grievances.
Perhaps the greatest tragedy of the current events in Libya is the arrested momentum of regional revolutions. Western tacit approval of brutal suppression of revolutions in the Arab world has been ignored and the ongoing slow motion genocide of the Palestinian nation continues with renewed intensity.
Tragically the region finds itself arcing towards two diametric outcomes: genuine peoples’ revolutions and all encompassing regional war. As usual, insidious western hypocrisy, complicity and indifference loom large as the greatest impediments to regional stability and true revolutionary reform.
Posted by Code_Punk | April 1, 2011, 10:35 pmMosque- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQVeLelLYts (that's just one, there are plenty more immages from other mosques in Misrata, as well as video from Zawya http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMUYNH2qHSo and Ajdabya)
Hospital -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqtVzWIvHKs&feature=related (again just an example, they shelled the main hospital and 2 clinics in Misrata leading to evacutaions, there is a mosque and attached clinic shelled in Zawya and again in Ajdabya both photograhed and filmed)
Kids – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFeXtT3LPSA
P.S. rape is a weapon of war when Saif Gadafi in a pep talk to troops recorded by mobile and recovered from a killed fighter urges them to violate the honour of the ____ of Benghazi and other cities who came out to celebrate the liberation of their areas
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 12:19 amWhere is the bombing of Libya going? http://bit.ly/dTXj9b
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 12:40 amLOL at Lenins Tomb, just like the Libyan anarchist who regrets 'militarising revolution' by towns defeating local barracks which would sucessfully put down the uprising in other towns+trying to resist when more columns were sent to recapture Zawya and Zwara (Gaddafi has those now and is taking revenge, the fate of the rest of Libya without the airstrikes). This Lenin guy says its 'bad faith' to argue about the massacre in Benghazi (after all Gaddafi said he was going to go from room to room to…kiss the little kids. Libyans know his history and what he did in reoccupied towns during this uprising but Lenin says unfounded speculation). Lenin says if the possible masssacre was stopped why hasn't the bombing, who cares if other civilians in Zintan and Misrata are still besieged and attacked and are asking for more not less airstrikes? Lenin's Tomb knows this, infact he begins by gloating that the Western intervention is drawing down. So we can't be grateful for intervention that saved some but we can gleefully point out when airstrikes aren't at the pace Libyans want.
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 8:48 amTypical, vote down video of Gadafi atrocities, there is nothing in this comment other than links and descriptions of regime actions which Sean and Fubarista denied, so what are you disagreeing with? Tells you were kabobfesters and fellow travellers stand. Sick but unsurprising.
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 8:13 amVotes can be submitted by anyone. This has been an uncensored debate, and the only comment by any Kabobfest blogger has been Sana’s, where she was neutral.
Roqayyah is not a member of Kabobfest and her views are her own.
Posted by MohammadKF | April 2, 2011, 10:58 amP.S. rape is a weapon of war when Saif Gadafi in a pep talk to troops recorded by mobile and recovered from a killed fighter urges them to violate the honour of the ____ of Benghazi and other cities who came out to celebrate the liberation of their areas
You accuse me of insulting your people? Apparently, the Libyan people are such savages they can be induced to serve Qaddafi with promises of all the women you can rape. Either that or this is bullshit. I vote for the latter.
The idea that Qaddafi has issued condoms and Viagra to his troops with instructions to go out and rape women is remarkably absurd even by the standards of dime-store orientalist propaganda. Qaddafi is fighting to maintain the loyalty of his supporters and you think he can maintain the loyalty of Muslims by commanding them to rape women? If I were a Libyan soldier and my commander gave me condoms and Viagra and instructions to use them to rape women, I would shoot my commander and defect to the rebels, and would expect any Libyan soldier to do the same.
Posted by Sean2009 | April 2, 2011, 10:39 amSean,
The reports of Viagra and condoms come from doctors at a hospital interviewed by Al Jazeera, it makes sense to me, as I think that the mercenaries that they found the condoms and viagra on wouldn't have stopped to purchase those items on their way to Libya from Chad.
Posted by Wisal | April 2, 2011, 12:21 pmI’m beginning to find it fairly annoying and frustrating that in all the comments from pro-interventionists not one claim they’ve made has been supported by clear-cut evidence, not a single one. Neither have my questions been answered, instead there has been unashamed deflection over and over again.
If your premise is strong you should have no problem substantiating it.
This has honestly become nothing more than a petty game of tug o’ war and until something coherent and substantive is presented I will sit back and allow the lot of you to continue in this parade of hype on your own. I’m tired of reading nothing more than emotional anecdotes because frankly, they are not stirring in light of such pathetic deflection.
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 12:55 amRoqayah as I have proved over and over your 'facts' you are ideologically aproppriate but factually inaccurate but you will of course never admit that the arms killing us are Soviet not western, that at his most brutal Gaddafi was an enemy of the west and a hero to 'anti-imperialits' whose theories always mattered more than our lives, that Gaddafi since 2003 signed all the contracts the West wated on oil, terrorism, immigration and opened up the economy further empoverishing Libyans and that the West could have continued a profitable relationship if they had ignored his brutal supprression of the uprising as you wish they did.
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 7:18 amWhich anti-imperialists was the clown a hero to? By his association with the West he has been thoroughly mocked and spat upon by many anti-imperialists, including myself.
What other groups or individuals in that respect have to say means little. I have always loathed Gaddafi.
Also, strangely enough, to say that the West has been in dealings with Gaddafi for some time has men rushing back towards my first question: How then can the United States etc al. be honest brokers?
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 12:03 pmExactly, just like I said repeatedly, his status among anti-imperialists waxed and waned not according to his treatment of us libyans, but his relations to the West. When he was at his most brutal in the 70s and early 80s he was a literal poster boy, the handsome revolutionary who supported their causes while imprisoning my father and uncle and torturing them, hanging their friends live on TV with primary school kids forced to watch adn their families sometimes made to cheer. This was no secret, but like I said then as now your ideology trumps Libyan lives.
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 1:52 pmFacts don't matter to Sean and Fubarista either, according to them mosques destroyed and protestors shot with heavy weapons of an army not police are false propaganda (exactly like ideologues on the other side when Iraq or Palestine atrocities are brought up, 'anti-imperialists' use the all Libyan rebels are alqaeda/want an islamists state to argue we should be left to our fate) , I provide YT links that prove the shooting of mosques, hospitals and civilians and am replied to with as Wisal said the standard zionist response – emotional and out of context of events! In Tasnim and Sarkenos's posts on Libya the Kabobfester comments include you deserve it!
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 7:46 amThe only one here being “emotional and out of context” is you. It’s clear for all to see as you deflect, continuously.
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 12:05 pmCan I ask you why you think that Libyans should not be emotional about what is happening in their country? Maybe you can tell them how to turn their feelings off?
Posted by Wisal | April 2, 2011, 12:22 pmWisal why can’t you answer a single bloody question? Why can you not support a single premise? Why do you continue to pathetically deflect. I don’t mind the stirring anecdotes, I find the lack of substantiation most annoying.
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 2:43 pmRoqayah,
Being Palestinian I constantly hear that I am "emotional" when discussing Zionists crimes. I resent that Arabs can't be emotional because the west will use Orientalist terminology against them and Arabs will tell them to be calm and rational while a madman kills them because being vigilant of western imperialism is of utmost importance. Can we please get to the point where all Arab lives are important and all Arabs deserve to live with the utmost urgency? Perhaps it is too much to wish that much from the West, but how about from Arabs?
For me, watching women wailing at funerals in Bahrain, seeing the funerals in Yemen and reading what Souad and Yara have said on KB is the same: pain and emotions. I won't judge judge them for however they choose to express their pain and I wonder why you do?
Posted by Wisal | April 2, 2011, 12:32 pmYou’re seem to have excelled in the art of fallacious tripe; red herrings etc. I said over and over that I do not hold anything against emotions, I respect emotive expression when coupled with proof in the case of wishing to defend a premise.
I hold nothing against those wishing to be “emotional”, feel free and be my guest.
In this case where a large-scale military intercession is ongoing with the involvement of British M16, CIA, DU laced weaponry etc. I would like evidence and sound contentions which would support the air-strikes.
I denounce emotive hype in its entirety, not emotional expression. You seem to believe that the term “hype” is interchangeable with “expression” when this is not the case.
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 2:52 pmThat's what I said, can't you read? I said the responses of me and Soad are characterised as "emotional and out of context'' by you and your friends, just like Zionists do when confronted with what their arguments actually mean on the ground.
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 12:49 pmThe pseudo-humanitarian intervention in Libya will provide the imperialist powers, i.e. the Western Coalition forces, ground to prevent Gadhafi’s eventual downfall from resulting in the rise of a regime that could challenge their interests; historical precedence substantiates this claim as we have seen in all other interventions the US et al. have been engaged in.
Also, "…Libya is seen as setting a precedent for other military interventions wherever their imperialist interests dictate."
Precedence matters here, as well as all issues on the ground. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/mar2011/pers-m2…
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 2, 2011, 3:16 pmThe precedene for military intervention on humanitarian ground was already set, and Libyans are grateful for it. Sierra Leone Kosovo and Bosnia are examples of Western intervention which saved lives and allowed a far from perfect but better order (so is the new Egypt and Tunisia adn every single arab country after revolution, even after they succed there is a long struggle to a real democracy which is itself a flawed goal as examples in the West, Latin America and Asia show). Massacres occured under their watch in Bosnia, the intervention is not doing all the Libyan ask for nor stoping civvilians, but whil Libyaahmed is happy to complain about that he fails to acknowledge what other Libyans are honest enough to say, that without these airstrikes Misrata would be like Zawiya, Benghazi at best like Misrata. We need foreign training, weapons, strategy to liberate the rest of Libya if Gaddafi refuses to stop shelling the free cities in the West and mass kidnapping in cities under his contol to effectively prevent reoccurence of demonstrations he shot with weapons used against armour not normal live rounds .
Posted by Yara | April 3, 2011, 9:58 amTo equate Bosnia Sierra Leone to wars of choice were the population did not desperatly ask for someone to come and save them is hilarious. Libya is like Iraq, but not in 2003 in 1991 when Iraqis revolted and were supressed by Saddam. They were shamelessly calling for foreign help but got only a no-fly zone. Thank God for the phrase all you lot are griping over ''all necessary meaans'' which meaant french planes did not circel overhead to watch the shellin of Benghazi by ground forces and the eventual cleansing of ''a handful of CIA backed rebels'' fromhouse to hous, room to room, and wardrobe to wardrobe (that threat cae just after Gaddafi promised his ''beloved Benghazi'' that ''anyone who goes into his home willbe safe'' – he like to echo the Prophet Mohammad since he says he is a new prophet out of the desert).
Posted by Yara | April 3, 2011, 10:07 amIf this was an ideologically apropriate cause you would people would have already found all the videos I posted above and more, just random from the suggested YT videos are two others that I saw when they were first posted on facebook and know the stories behind because I care about these people, not your ideology:
The 4 kids from the Abu Fnas family in Misrata, our family friends blown literally to fragments recently http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_0G-FkZYrU&fe…
Girl in Shahat whose head was blown open at the beginning of the uprising <a href="http://thttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0RqImJzI3g&feature=related&oref=http%3A%2F%2 Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJFeXtT3LPSA&has_verified=1&skipcontrinter=1″ target=”_blank”>thttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0RqImJzI3g&feature=related&oref=http%3A%2F%2 <a href="http://Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJFeXtT3LPSA&has_verified=1&skipcontrinter=1” target=”_blank”>Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJFeXtT3LPSA&has_verified=1&skipcontrinter=1
A guy demonstrating was shot not with lives round like other Arab security forces, no Gaddafi uses his kataib amnia (private army led by sons) and they shoot anti-aircraft on humans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCg-mrzHR9Q&fe…
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 7:48 amYou have only proved you are remarkably advanced in the art of hype, clearly you do not understand what documentation and clear-cut facts are. No one is denying the atrocities of Gaddafi, that he has his hand in them etc. I do not question that atrocities are being comitted. Surely you are able to see this yet you continue to belt out emotional anecdotes and copy-paste the crimes of such and such in a pathetic attempt to deflect. You have to answer a single blpost question, provide any documented evidence to support the no-fly zone, airstrikes etc. You have give me nothing but anecdotes and videos of crimes.
You have not “proved” anything Yara, not a single thing.
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 11:56 amYou have an obsession with made up facts that suit your ideology, claiming western arms and support are the reason Gaddafi is killing us (The arms are Soviet, the support is from China Russia and the justification is provided by anti-imperialists like you), you deny the lives saved by the Nato bombing, and you and your friends flat out deny that the crimes of Gaddafi mean anything or in the case of Sean and Fubarista say they are propaganda and never happened, when shown video they say its kust as likely Nato or the ''handful'' of CIA backed rebels did it – including when I personally know the father of the children who apparently is too ''emotional'' to know who killed them ans should refer to Sean for the impartial ''turth''.
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 1:00 pmThe shady dealings of the West with Gaddafi http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/25/gaddafi-libya-deals?cat=commentisfree&type=article
“This bonanza of kickbacks and corrupt deals, in which western companies greedy for Libyan oil participated, got under way when the US reopened trade with Libya in 2004″
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 12:17 pmI have adressed the Wests's relations with the Gaddafi (much cleaner than that of 'anti-imperialists' in the 70s and their current representatives like Nabila Ramadani and Sean) repeatedly before this post, but you continue to ignore what I said and post stuff that is proof against you as this shows the West could have continued dealing with Gaddafi if they had listen to the likes of you and Seamus Milne and looked the other way as another Libyan uprising is brutally suppressed (and you explicitly look forward to lots of spectacular hangings like in the 70s when anti-imperialsits hailed Gaddafi).
Posted by Yara | April 2, 2011, 1:08 pmIt proves my contention that the United States et al. cannot be honest brokers. You seem to wish to bypass the fact that those who financially supported Gadsafi are now running ‘to the rescue’ which is utterly maddening.
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 2:47 pmI suggest everyone, Wisal and Yara included, take the time to read the following: http://zeroanthropology.net/2011/03/18/the-libyan-revolution-is-dead-notes-for-an-autopsy/
It covers not only Western interventionism but the activists pushing for this and the Libyan rebels themselves; the author, anthropologist Max Forte, provides even more questions which have yet to be answered and what to look for in the coming future.
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 3:04 pmHow Gaddafi's son toured America as guest of U.S. Government just as Libya was plunged into revolution http://bit.ly/gLxSGm
Posted by thecynicalarab | April 2, 2011, 4:48 pm“The US-Nato intervention in Libya, with United Nations security council cover, is part of an orchestrated response to show support for the movement against one dictator in particular and by so doing to bring the Arab rebellions to an end by asserting western control, confiscating their impetus and spontaneity and trying to restore the status quo ante.”
http://bit.ly/h9Xs4F
Posted by Roqayah | April 2, 2011, 8:52 pmA free Palestine will not be led by angels or leftist ideolgues who share your every viewpoint (thank God!), the new South Africa is full of injustice and the ANC is full of corruption but anyone who suggests that Israeli or Afrikaner Apartheid may be the the lesser evil'' is SICK. The Apartheid struggel took Gaddaffis money and praised him to the skies (including Mandela) when he was as I once again point out at his worst at home, but despite my uncle andd father being tortured and imprisoned during that time and other university and highschool students executed for demonstrating, I would be a sick person to condemn South Africans for looking for support from the devil himself. Africans suffered from the dictators (idi Amin being the most famous) and civil wars he funded (e.g Sierra Leone's Charles Taylor) but some like JEM in Darfur have a just cause (Gaddafi funded the Janjaweed too, the only criteria is that you go kiss his hand and praise him to the skies) and I naturally do not blame them for taking arms and money and training where hey can find it.
Posted by Yara | April 3, 2011, 9:41 amPeople have every right to question everything. The idea that people have to agree with your philosophy and your causes is the mindset of a fanatic. I don't see where anyone needs your bloody thick-headed 'forgiveness" for actually thinking through world events and coming up with conclusions other than those sanctioned by Al Jazeera or CNN. If this is the mindset of your "revolution," you are going to have a rough time with this "democracy" thing you claim to want.
No one who thinks for himself or respects free thinking would ever come up with something as regressive and dogmatic as this. Any person who doesn't think through the causes he supports and the means by which they attempt to attain their goals is a morally bankrupt stooge, and God knows we have enough of them in this world. It's little wonder you can't see past Qaddafi's head at what NATO has in store for you.
Posted by Sean2009 | April 3, 2011, 1:47 pmSouad, despite the idiotic positions of the author and those questioning whether Gaddafi has even done anything wrong please know that Libyans have the support of the Palestinian people. We do not want you to march to your deaths with "dignity" just to score a point against Western imperialism. Your lives are precious and worth saving.
In solidarity,
Your sister Kawther
Posted by Kawther Awawda | April 3, 2011, 2:56 pmEverything has a price. Freedom has its price. Asking for help also has its price. Nothing is wrong for asking for help, avoid asking the wrong person for help. These are choices that face us, as individuals and as peoples as well. No one will risk their own lives to help another, unless they believed in their cause, or have a huge benefit from helping you. We all need help every now and then, but realize who you ask and what price you will pay for this help.
Posted by Mario Marwan | April 4, 2011, 1:06 amI remember my Iraqi friend from UK, she carried great hopes to return to Iraq after ousting Saddam. She said that "only Americans can save us from Saddam".
After 8 years of the invasion of Iraq, my friend never visited Baghdad…. she said that she don't want to experience the Abu Ghreib prison nor one of her family….
of course not!!
I just hope that we won't see another Afghanistan or Iraq, it would have a better flavor that the Libyan people who oust Ghaddafi and not "friendly" NATO!!
Posted by @YDoha | April 4, 2011, 10:20 amLibya is Iraq 1991 where the shameless Iraqis begged for international help to save their uprisng from being bloodily suppressed but only got a late NFZ and no airstrikes so only the North adn not the South was saved. Libya is not Iraq 2003 whicch was an invasion followed by an occupation based on claims of WMD and links to Alqaeda (which the left is happy to use to claim my people should die)
Posted by Yara | April 6, 2011, 10:40 am