Comments on KABOBfest: Muhajabats in America: Over-exposed?

I've linked to this post from our site, Maytha. It...

2008-04-22T02:29:00.000-07:00

I've linked to this post from our site, Maytha. It's terrific.

The American media is obsessed with what sells, and a "mysterious" woman in hijab is a hot commodity.

For what it's worth, when I was an undergrad, the president of the Duke MSA was a convert who didn't wear hijab. I suppose she may have gotten flak from both asinine zealots and people who thought she just wasn't "exotic" enough. I never got the chance to talk to her, but she seemed really cool.

YES!!!! I emphatically agree Saladin. I know my co...

2008-04-21T14:45:00.000-07:00

YES!!!! I emphatically agree Saladin.

I know my community would regard it as blamphemous for me to say, but yes, I really don't care if 4 out of 5 Imams recommend that a woman wear a veil because their tasfir on "3ura" or if they recommend a certain brand of toothpaste for that matter (although I would be more opened to hearing that recommendation and following suit than the former one-I mean, I'm always looking for a good toothpaste brand!).

So, at the end of the day, the primary definition of an Imam is someone who leads prayer. And as you stated, God's word supercedes an Imam's, anything else would be considered shirk. That is the beauty of Islam, our relationship with God is personal, there is no clergy for us to defer to. We can choose to seek out different perspectives or interpretations on text, but there is no rigid authority who can decree what is Islamic or unIslamic for a whole community, and that is why I said, "Islamically, it is acceptable to cover, and it's permissible not to." I have made no ruling on this, but have not found no text, sura, aya, in the Qur'an that requires a woman to cover her hair or forbids her from doing so either.

Maytha said:"The overall perception in my experien...

2008-04-20T06:43:00.000-07:00

Maytha said:

"The overall perception in my experience with those unfamiliar with the religion and culture is that a Muslim woman's obligations are to: 1. Veiling: to cover one's head and body. 2. Abstain from eating pork and drinking liquor
3. Subordination to men: obedience towards one's husband/men in a woman's life."

The sad thing is, about 80% (going anecdotally for stats here, but I did grow up in Dearborn) of 'devout' muslim men believe this too!

Some of these responses are retarded. I especially love the "don't use the lame excuse that it's not tated explicitly in the Qu'ran"! That's not an excuse, it's fact! There is NOTHING ANYWHERE in the qu'ran that says women should cover their hair. ANYWHERE.

Pissed offf Muslim Student Assn. Alum: "Oh, not, it's not in there, but the great Imam high muckamuck said -"

I DON'T CARE! The imam hgh muckamuck is not God. You believe the Qu'ran is the literal word of God, right? So what, He *forgot* to mention that He wants women to cover their hair? He didn't know how to express Himself clearly and thought He'd leave it to his PR guys?

For a devout Muslim it should be pretty simple: either you beleive the word of God comes first or you believe that the All-Merciful needs bossy old men to explain what He REALLY meant...

Of course i would not mind Zeynab!!!Please do it!P...

2008-04-19T07:24:00.000-07:00

Of course i would not mind Zeynab!!!

Please do it!

Peace and light my sister

safiyyahthat's cool that youve got all the facts b...

2008-04-19T04:49:00.000-07:00

safiyyah
that's cool that youve got all the facts behind you, but I also find this type of tone from the hijabed and super-practicing muslims as one of the reasons that non-hijabed women arent considered muslim by they west. To take away someone's identification with islam by whether she wears a hijab or not doesnt help islam as a whole. Especially when the she is outwardly fighting for your rights.
In the meantime, we all have our money in interest charging banks. Are we still muslim?

Maytha, would you mind if we featured this instead...

2008-04-18T22:18:00.000-07:00

Maytha, would you mind if we featured this instead of just linking to it? With all credits due, of course.

Im with you, Maytha. I can relate the ironic feeli...

2008-04-18T19:15:00.000-07:00

Im with you, Maytha. I can relate the ironic feeling of arguing for hijabi women's rights only to be looked down upon by these very same women.

To the preachers who dont think theyre preaching: Pillars dont make you muslim, shehada does.
and that God is merciful, compassionate and forgiving.

I dont question her "faithfulness". I made it cle...

2008-04-16T05:31:00.000-07:00

I dont question her "faithfulness". I made it clear that there is not much relationship between faithfulnes, or even modesty and the hijab.

It is a requirement, that is clear and has been for 1,400 years. The CHOICE to wear it is clear as well and women should not be judged if they do not do so.

It is my experience that the radicals on both side of this issue treat women like they are idiots. You have those who claim that women who wear it are sheep and have no mind of their own and those on the opposite side who say women who dont wear it are loose and have no faith.

They are both opinions of the same type and devalue women's right to choose and make their own decision, one that is between God and themselves.

It is a well established fact that covering one's hair is an important part of modesty, there is a reason why the most observant of Jews, Christians and Muslims cover their hair.

Since the covering of one's hair for modesty is something that has been around for some 3,000-4,000 years, The Qur'an wouldnt, I think, feel the need to point out something which was obvious to everyone around when the revelation came.

It was an established fact in the Christian and Jewish communities at the time the Qur'an came.

It is one thing to advocate that women have a choice in the matter, another to try to pass off that there is no requirement to cover.

Women who do this do their own cause a GREAT disservice.

"nowhere in the Quran does it say "cover your hair...

2008-04-16T04:34:00.000-07:00

"nowhere in the Quran does it say "cover your hair." many have agreed on this. the basis for which many women do decide to cover is taken from hadith. but what"

Filistineena, we already replied to that lame excuse with this comment :

"and please don't give me the lame excuse it doesn't say not covering the hair is haram most haram's aren't mentioned as literally haram other words and sentences are used to imply them."

and who are the many ? any of them sober scholars or even practicing muslims ? You know the type that don't do fornification or drink alcohol or go to discos ?
If you don't want to wear hijab that fine, but don't play with religion to make yourself feel better. The Quran says, to the effect, a woman must cover her Ziena, isn't hair part of her Ziena ?
and safia already posted most of the reasoning behind it. So please be more original, like use a new version of the Quran to justify your own translations ( note not interpretations ) like the Christians did.You can even call it the King Bushs Quran .

nowhere in the Quran does it say "cover your hair....

2008-04-15T22:27:00.000-07:00

nowhere in the Quran does it say "cover your hair." many have agreed on this. the basis for which many women do decide to cover is taken from hadith. but what does it matter?

more importantly, why is maytha's "faithfulness" even being questioned here? why is it any of our business? why can't we (as a muslim community) get past the superficial judgement? as maytha said, this type of judgment is itself unislamic.

Great post Maytha, you officially RSVP-ed your pla...

2008-04-15T21:46:00.000-07:00

Great post Maytha, you officially RSVP-ed your place in HELL! Want proof? Just read what I wrote about you on KABOBfestWATCH!

By the way, nice pictures on Facebook. Your boobs are showing in practically EVERYONE! Hypocrite!

And my listing of the various scholars and very we...

2008-04-15T16:35:00.000-07:00

And my listing of the various scholars and very well respected companions who have made this tafsir was in direct response to this response of Maytha to Abu Sinan:

"I have trouble accepting your claim when you don't point to a verse in the Qur'an to back up your statement or cite specific historic tasfir."

I don't have any problem with Maytha not wearing i...

2008-04-15T16:32:00.000-07:00

I don't have any problem with Maytha not wearing it. That's her business. What I have a problem with is her saying that it is Islamically acceptable not to wear it. That is a position that is completely inconsistent with all serious Islamic scholarship.

As anon said, Emily, all four founders of the schools unequivocally state that hijab is mandatory. Some of them also think niqab is mandatory, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Of course I can't say that they don't exist, but I've never even seen anyone pretending to be at all knowledgeable about this subject saying that it's not mandatory, except women who have decided, for whatever reason, that they don't want to wear it.

And, I understand Maytha's point. There are Muslim women who don't wear hijab and their lives and voices are important too. I just really have problem spreading this unfounded (as far as Islam goes) belief that it's not mandatory.

Honestly, i think its offensive to even ask her if...

2008-04-15T15:53:00.000-07:00

Honestly, i think its offensive to even ask her if she practices the 5 pillars, the post is not about her adherence to the pillars, its about media representations of hijabis and Muslim women on a whole.

And I have a great deal of respect for women in US and Europe who face aloooot of discrimination, racism, xenophobia bc of the hijab and the struggles that they face. i also want there to be spaces for Muslim women who don't cover, to have a place in the the representation of the ummah

maytha i'm with you on this

Okay, this could go very badly. Maytha (and other ...

2008-04-15T15:40:00.000-07:00

Okay, this could go very badly. Maytha (and other women who don't wear hejab) aren't trying to turn this into a bihejabi vs. hejabi war, and she's not saying that women who wear hejab are doing anything wrong.

The point of her post is that it's not right to question a woman's faith just because she doesn't wear hejab. It's not right to tell a woman what to wear (or not wear). The experiences of both women who wear and do not wear hejab are valid, and each is just as "Islamic" as the other.

Judgment is reserved for Allah only.

"Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've definite...

2008-04-15T13:21:00.000-07:00

"Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've definitely read that there are four historical accepted schools of islam. One of them agrees with Maytha on this."

No, all four of them agree that the hair is 3ora which is the basis of covering the hair.

"Furthermore, even if I'm completely wrong on this, isn't it everyone's right to read for themself? All those scholars quoted above I'm 99.9% sure are not God."

Yes, read for yourself, read the whole Quran and understand it fully and connect all the dots together, be careful not to exclude any ayaa's when translating another. then read the History surrounding the time of the ayaa to understand the context of the ayaa then read all the previous scholars take on the issue. Then you will find that to issue an opinion you need a consensus among scholars, so you'll need a lot of scholars to agree with you, not the average folk.
after that you can say your opinion. After you understand the words of God. By the way you'll be a scholar by then.

and here is an ayaa that tells you not to issue religious opinions without understanding :

يقول الله تعالى في سورة الحج "ومن الناس من يجادل في الله بغير علم ويتبع كل شيطان مريد. كتب عليه أنه من تولاه فأنه يضله ويهديه الى عداب السعير"

صدق الله العظيم

the hijab is lame anyway. i say our women should b...

2008-04-15T12:52:00.000-07:00

the hijab is lame anyway. i say our women should burn them like bras. ferrizzle.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've definitel...

2008-04-15T12:40:00.000-07:00

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've definitely read that there are four historical accepted schools of islam. One of them agrees with Maytha on this.

How come the long list of scholars provided above are only following the other three?

The thing about scholarship is that you can't just ignore opinions that you don't like.

Furthermore, even if I'm completely wrong on this, isn't it everyone's right to read for themself? All those scholars quoted above I'm 99.9% sure are not God.

maytha, oh gigantic muslim scholar,can you explain...

2008-04-15T12:19:00.000-07:00

maytha, oh gigantic muslim scholar,

can you explain WHY those five ARE the pillars?

can you explain the difference between the concept of 5 "pillars" and the concept of 5 "foundations" coupled with 10 "branches" in shiite islam? can you give us more fatawa?

Maytha, why did you get defensive? I didn't questi...

2008-04-15T12:06:00.000-07:00

Maytha, why did you get defensive? I didn't question whether you knew the five pillars. I asked if you kept them. Because that is what makes you a true Muslim, not the headscarf. If you keep the pillars than you are a Muslim. If don't keep the pillars than you're not religiously muslim, though you may identify as one culturally. That's all.

"Hijab thus forms part of a holistic program of Is...

2008-04-15T11:53:00.000-07:00

"Hijab thus forms part of a holistic program of Islamic ethics and morals governing male and female interaction. Prescribing the rule of Hijab, Allah says, “Say to the believing men to lower their gazes and guard their chastity,” (An-Nur: 30) “And say to the believing women to lower their gazes and guard their chastity, and let them not display of their charm - except what is apparent.” (An-Nur: 31)

Commenting on the phrase, “what is apparent”, Ibn `Abbas, the famous Companion and the Qur’an exegete, said, “It means face and hands.” In other words, according to Ibn `Abbas, a woman must cover all her body except her face and hands while in the presence of men who are not related to her directly (and the list of those in whose presence she need not cover is clearly outlined in Surat An-Nur: 31). "

from islamonline.net

"...that "what is apparent of it" refers to the face and hands and/or to the decorations that are worn on the face and the hands. This is the opinion of Aisha Umm al-Muminin (rAa), Anas ibn Malik (rAa), Abdullah ibn Abbas (rAa), and Miswar ibn Makhrama (rAa) - these are all Sahaba - and also of Ata (rAa), Qatada (rAa), Sa'id ibn Jubayr (rAa), Mujahid (rAa), al-Dahhak (rAa), and al-Hasan (rAa) - these are all Tabi'un (rAa). Almost every tafsir (commentary on the Quran) will include some if not all of these authorities for this opinion."

from http://www.muhajabah.com/surah-an-nur.htm

You were the one to assert that it's NOT a requirement, very obviously without a shred of evidence to back yourself up. Since you are the one that is refuting centuries of Islamic rulings, I think the proof is incumbent on you, and not the other way around.

Are you implying that Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi, Imam Malik, and Imam Hanbal (ra), and all of their respective madhaib were all erroenous? They ALL made a huge mistake?

Part of the reason that Turkey and Tunisia can go on their hijab banning sprees, sometimes leading to horrific abuse, is because of people like you who say hijab is not required. It also leads to pressure on women who do choose to wear it, even from non-Muslims. There have been brave women in America who have fought and suffered for the right to wear hijab, and the last thing they need is opinions from the Muslim world that it's somehow not required, which leads to lack of support for these women from their own community! I don't need non-Muslims teaching me my religion, thank you very much, nor, I am sure, do you.

Not wearing hijab does not make you a non-Muslim, or even necessarily a bad Muslim. We all do things we shouldn't, on a daily basis. But I think you should examine your opinion, especially when you are possibly spreading that opinion which, if every scholar in the history of Islam is to be trusted, is wrong, to others.

I'm sure you will be upset for someone disagreeing with you, but the opinion that hijab is required is a very strong opinion, and should not be tossed out or disregarded, EVEN if you disagree with it.

I like how because I don't cover my head, people a...

2008-04-15T10:57:00.000-07:00

I like how because I don't cover my head, people automatically assume that I know nothing about Islam and the pillars. Abu Zub, I lecture on Islam and will be on TV talking about Islamic misperceptions by Americans next month-in which i did explain all five pillars thank you very much!

Maytha, you don't wear the headscarf. Fine. That's...

2008-04-15T10:50:00.000-07:00

Maytha, you don't wear the headscarf. Fine. That's you're choice. You may still be modest, who knows. But do you keep the five pillars of Islam? Because that is in the Koran. And that does determine whether or not your a practicing Muslim.

Abu-Sinan, "Of course it is a requirement." I hear...

2008-04-15T09:43:00.000-07:00

Abu-Sinan,

"Of course it is a requirement."

I hear this baseless assertion minus scriptural support far too often.

I have trouble accepting your claim when you don't point to a verse in the Qur'an to back up your statement or cite specific historic tasfir.

Passing judgement, ruling on whether something is exclusively Islamically permissible or not adds to this elitist canon that at the end of the day becomes unIslamic practice.

In my humble opinion, this kind of elitist judgment negatively plaguing Islam, is the greatest obstacle Islam faces in a contemporary globalized world.

Of course it is a requirement, but it is an issue ...

2008-04-15T09:07:00.000-07:00

Of course it is a requirement, but it is an issue that is between a woman and God and no one else.

My wife is an Arfab lady who choose not to wear the hijab. That is her choice and I dont pressure her in any way.

Besides, wearing a hijab (scarf) doesnt make one modest. I can walk in the malls here in DC any day of the week and see numerous women wearing hijab, but they also have skin tight pants, show cleavage, have ten pounds of make up on and enough perfume that you can smell them from 20 feet away.

The concept of hijab is much more than a scarf. There are many women who choose NOT to wear hijab but are MORE modest than some women who do.

At the end of the day it is an issue that is personal. As to media coverage, it is my experience here in the USA that a majority of Muslim women to NOT wear hijab, and hence those that do are way over represented in the media. I think there is a bit of orientalism in this as the hijab serves to mark Muslim women as "the other".