Saladin,1)Bringing the Crusade-era notion of Chris...

tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6358737.post-43197598072688371662008-01-13T16:29:00.000-08:002008-01-13T16:29:00.000-08:002008-01-13T16:29:00.000-08:00Saladin,1)Bringing the Crusade-era notion of Chris...Saladin, 1)Bringing the Crusade-era notion of Christendom into this is pointless -- different era, different notion of 'citizenship', 'the state', 'religion', etc. Apples and oranges. I don't know why you say so. The US constitution was adopted in 1787. America much more closely resembled Medieval Europe in 1787 than it does the America of today. The US constitution is the law of the land, and it wasn't written recently. Apples and apples. But my point was mainly that many Americans who claim to be Christians barely understand that Jesus didn't speak 17th century English, but Aramaic. I believe that you believe that. I hope you continue to :) 3)This country wasn't 'physically found[ed?]' by Christians -- there were lots of people here when the Europeans got here. Yes? And did they have a nation here? Did they found the United States? This country - the United States - was founded by Christians. That's what I said. That's what I meant. That's the truth. And the 'physically' part is a particularly dangerous lie, since non-Christian Africans were enslaved to do most of the building and agricultural work The slave trade didn't begin until after the first colonists had been in North America over 100 years. In any case, I don't see how your point is at all relevant. It seems you just inserted that into the discussion to bring up the issue of slavery and to call me a liar. There were Europeans being held in slavery by Arab Muslims in North Africa during the same time period. Does that have any bearing on the fact that they were Arab Muslim vassal states of the Ottoman empire? Nevermind, I'm getting confused now, which was probably your intention, right? So what were we talking about, again? Oh. Yes. There was no pre-existing "nation" where America is today. So when I said "founded" I meant just that. The FOUNDING FATHERS as we call them created a new nation here, where there wasn't one before. If you dispute that, you'll have to dispute our history books. This isn't my personal opinion. (that is, the laying of the ACTUAL and ECONOMIC foundations of this country). So the 'foundations' of this country are 'heathen' every bit as much as 'Christian'. You sure do love to argue semantics, don't you? 4)Even among the early colonists and the "founding fathers", there was more religious diversity than most Americans understand. It's good that you are so much smarter than most Americans, so you can educate us about this stuff. For one, the colonists themselves -- from the English Civil War escapees down to the framers of the constitution -- had a wide variety of religious views, some of which (freethought, Unitarianism, Deism) are only nominally or not at all Christian. OK, for one thing you are talking about Thomas Jefferson, not about a plethora of people spanning a period of 200 years. Nice try, though. For another thing, "Deist" just means somebody who believes in a deity, but it's usually used to describe Unitarians. So you tried to pass off one religious philosophy as two different ones, right? And "freethought" is not a religious concept, but a philosophy. Lastly, there's no evidence that Thomas Jefferson was actually a Unitarian. He read from the King James Bible, and he went to Anglican services. He definitely had some issues with the trinity and some of the other doctrines that were introduced into Christianity by the Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church. So do I. I don't consider myself a Unitarian. I consider myself a Protestant. As far as any of us knows, including you, that's what Thomas Jefferson considered himself to be as well. More importantly, whatever their own views, they INTENTIONALLY WROTE THE CONSTITUTION TO BAR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A STATE RELIGION. Yes, they did. I pointed that out myself, a few comments back. So my contention that the US is a country where the majority of the population is Christian, but the government is not christian is not just semantics, but a vital constitutional principle... That's not the point you made. You took issue with me when I said the US was a Christian country. I said that it is, and that it always has been. Oh, and I hardly the thing about Bush claiming God said it was ok to bomb... Bush replied that "he is the wrong father to appeal to in terms of strength; there is a higher father that I appeal to." And you went from Bush saying basically that he prays for guidance (which is what I interpret "appeal" to mean) to "Bush consulted with Jesus, and Jesus told him it's OK to bomb Iraq". How creative and fun of you.programmer craighttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17566950406349754166noreply@blogger.com